Book of Mormon Notes– How deep can you dig?

2011, June 30

“Book of Mormon: Helaman 8:17: ‘Filled with Gladness and Did Rejoice’; Abraham Sees Jesus Christ in Genesis 15 (Joseph Smith Translation)” by grego

Book of Mormon | Helaman 8:17: Abraham ‘Filled with Gladness and Did Rejoice’; Abraham Sees Jesus Christ in Genesis 15 (Joseph Smith Translation)


In Helaman 8:17, Nephi says: “Yea, and behold, Abraham saw of his (the Messiah/ Son of God) coming, and was filled with gladness and did rejoice”. Where might he have been sourcing from—the Old Testament? In Genesis?

I remember search for this before, and might have found one possible verse. Rechecking, I can’t find it. Relying on the footnotes in the KJV Bible, I find nothing.

There is this, in the New Testament:
Jesus says: John 8:56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.

And in the Joseph Smith Translation of Genesis, one reads:
Genesis 15:9 And Abram said, Lord God, how wilt thou give me this land for an everlasting inheritance?
10 And the Lord said, Though thou wast dead, yet am I not able to give it thee?
11 And if thou shalt die, yet thou shalt possess it, for the day cometh, that the Son of Man shall live; but how can he live if he be not dead? he must first be quickened.
12 And it came to pass, that *Abram looked forth and saw the days of the Son of Man, and was glad, and his soul found rest*, and he believed in the Lord; and the Lord counted it unto him for righteousness.

I’ll keep checking…

2011, June 15

“Book of Mormon: Alma 20:17-18: What Does Ammon Mean (Especially in Light of Baptism for the Dead and More)?” by grego

Book of Mormon: Alma 20:17-18: What Does Ammon Mean (Especially in Light of Baptism for the Dead and More)?

(c) 2011

For years this verse has been a little troubling to me:

Alma 20:17 But Ammon stood forth and said unto him: Behold, thou shalt not slay thy son; nevertheless, it were better that he should fall than thee, for behold, he has repented of his sins; but if thou shouldst fall at this time, in thine anger, thy soul could not be saved.

Well, what about baptism for the dead? Lamoni’s father clearly didn’t understand the gospel and would be a candidate for it.

But at that time, there was no baptism for the dead; not only that, it was likely this doctrine/ part of the plan of salvation was unknown.

Note that the spirit world is not brought up until Alma touches on it in Alma 40 (years later), and even then, there is an incomplete understanding.

Also, at that time, there was no bridge/ connection between what we now refer to as paradise and spirit prison, or which Alma terms (as we still do also) paradise and hell; and there wouldn’t be until the resurrection of Christ.

This has happened throughout Christian history; especially since the time of Moses much was “lost”.
I believe that Peter himself had no clue about saving ordinances for the dead until much later in his life. (His unwillingness to preach to the Gentiles in Acts, compared to a few parts of 1 Peter 3:18-20, possibly 1 Peter 1:12, lead me to believe that.)
Each dispensation and prophet has certain knowledge, and, as Jesus, grows in knowledge and understanding. This is something LDS often forget, and other Christians hardly know in the first place (especially many anti-Book of Mormon critics).

In the next verse, however, Ammon says something interesting:
Alma 20:18 And again, it is expedient that thou shouldst forbear; for if thou shouldst slay thy son, he being an innocent man, his blood would cry from the ground to the Lord his God, for vengeance to come upon thee; and perhaps thou wouldst lose thy soul.

Ok, in the previous verse he says: “but if thou shouldst fall at this time, in thine anger, thy soul could not be saved”;
now he says: “…if thou shouldst slay they son… perhaps thou wouldst lose thy soul”.

Verse 18 really throws a new context and light on Ammon’s meaning in verse 17. Ammon goes from “no” to “perhaps”, and from “thy soul could not be saved” to “lose thy soul”. What’s going on here?

It also seems as if Ammon speaks not to expound lots of doctrine in this situation, but to effect a cause on the king; and he does:
Alma 20:27 …thou and thy brethren may come unto me, in my kingdom; for I shall greatly desire to see thee. For the king was greatly astonished at the words which [Ammon] had spoken, and also at the words which had been spoken by his son Lamoni, therefore he was desirous to learn them.

and: Alma 22:3 …And the king said unto them: …I will insist that ye shall administer unto me; for I have been somewhat troubled in mind because of the generosity and the greatness of the words of thy brother Ammon…

Did that little number unintentionally throw a little confusion into the king’s mind? I believe it might have.

I think Ammon wants to impress on the king a few things in Alma 20:17-18:
1. repentance saves.
2. God does not save everyone.
3. killing has consequences with God.

These points are in direct contradiction to what Lamoni believed and his father believe:
Alma 18:5 Now this was the tradition of Lamoni, which he had received from his father, that there was a Great Spirit. Notwithstanding they believed in a Great Spirit, *they supposed that whatsoever they did was right*; nevertheless, Lamoni began to fear exceedingly, with fear lest he had done wrong in slaying his servants…

and in direct contradiction to what that the other ex-Nephites among the Lamanites—most of those belonged to the Order of Nehor, who had built synagogues—believe:
Alma 1:4 …all mankind should be saved at the last day, and that they need not fear nor tremble, but that they might lift up their heads and rejoice; for the Lord had created all men, and had also redeemed all men; and, in the end, all men should have eternal life.
(Alma 22:7 And Aaron answered him and said unto him: Believest thou that there is a God? And the king said: I know that the Amalekites say that there is a God, and I have granted unto them that they should build sanctuaries, that they may assemble themselves together to worship him. And if now thou sayest there is a God, behold I will believe.)

I believe that repentance in the spirit world and ordinances for the dead were not known by the Lamanites at the time; even still, in a sense—short-time—Ammon’s words would be true.

I believe Alma 20:17 means if he died in his sins he would go to hell; and that Alma 20:18 means if the king killed his son and did not repent, he would also go to hell.

2011, June 14

Ron Paul for President: Would It Really Be Possible to Cut the Puppet Strings?

Ron Paul for President: Would It Really Be Possible to Cut the Puppet Strings?


The bankers always tried to establish their money as the money of the USA. They tried against Andrew Jackson; it has been said that Lincoln tried to change it, so he was assassinated (if so, one of the few good things of Lincoln’s legacy); they finally succeeded in 1913.

Note that the passage of the income tax amendment was passed in 1913 (very disputed, but as with Obama’s birth certificate, it doesn’t matter, things will go on as planned); if you think that was coincidence or just fat chance…

Piles of evidence for any who want to see point that the president of the United States, like other positions, is a bought position where the winner becomes a puppet of the real rulers of the USA and much of the world: some of the big bankers.

Though more and more Americans are waking up to reality, most are still split Democrat/ Republican (including LDS).

Voting machines have taken over voting, and yes, there have been anomolies that point to one thing: rigged/ thrown elections through voting machine manipulation (software).

The man the real rulers least want in the presidential office is Ron Paul; it seems the guy not only doesn’t love big banks, but he loves the Constitution; and that’s a huge problem for the real rulers. Every other candidate fits ok with their plans of continued conquest of America.

So, the question: would it even be possible for Ron Paul to be elected?

Ron Paul has more or less been and will continue to be blacked out of all mainstream media. Any chance of winning has to be over the internet and grassroots. (And yet, he recently came in 2nd in the Nevada Primaries, and 2nd in the Louisiana caucuses.)

No doubt the closer he gets to winning, the more will be done to stop him, in every way possible. In the end—if it comes to it—it would very likely mean assassination, before or after winning the presidency (like with JFK, RFK, JFK, Jr. (see for the last one)).

Now, the real question: does it even matter?

Sure, no one likes to play a game or fight a war that can’t be won, and the odds keep stacking against the “little guy” freedom lover in all ways.

And let’s admit it: it’s pretty much impossible to kick the international bankers out now.

But is there something that could happen—or many things that could happen—for the better because of Ron Paul running, and an effort to elect Ron Paul?

I think so. So the question is not if he can win, but if we will vote for him. I encourage all to check him and his position out at,, and the many videos on

2011, June 8

“Book of Mormon: Alma 31-35: Who Had the Most Convenient God: Nehor, Korihor, or the Zoramites?” by grego

Book of Mormon: Alma 31-35: Who Had the Most Convenient God: Nehor, Korihor, or the Zoramites?


Ah, convenience! It’s the call word of the day. And wouldn’t it be so great if God and his commandments were convenient like everything else, too?

Well, look no further than the god of the Zoramites, a very convenient God.

The god of Nehor was convenient, but there were a few problems with him:
1. he saved *everyone*—even the idiots, the losers, the ugly, the poor. A god who does that, just can’t be cool.
2. salvation was free for everyone.
3. there was no true way to control the people and keep the priests on top–if everyone everywhere was saved, everything’s all said and done!

The god of Korihor was convenient, but there were a few problems with him:
1. since there is no god, well, there’s an emptiness in the soul.
2. since there is no god, there’s no need for religion or priests = no control over the people.
3. it’s not fun when life doesn’t go your way, huh Korihor? That means, it’s your fault, and your fault only.

So, we now have the god of the Zoramites:
1. he’s cool, so those he saves have to be cool, too. If you aren’t cool, you lose your salvation.
2. fall out of grace with the priests = lose your salvation. This keeps control tight.
3. have others build your synagogues for you.
4. go there once a week, go up so everyone can see you and your riches and clothes, repeat a rote prayer. (I guess rote isn’t easy if you don’t have a great memory, but most people can memorize if they put their heart into it.)
5. don’t bother with religion the rest of the time, which time has to be dedicated to making money/ being cool so you can remain “saved”.
6. no other commandments.
7. no revelation. You don’t need it, anyway—you’re saved already so you can devote your time to this life. Things not working out? That’s just god saying you’re losing his grace, I guess.
8. other religion? Just foolishness.

2011, June 2

“Book of Mormon: Alma 31-35: The Zoramites vs. Alma and Amulek and the people of Ammon: Who Is Dross and Cast Out; and Why?” by grego

Book of Mormon: Alma 31-35: The Zoramites vs. Alma and Amulek and the people of Ammon: Who Is Dross and Cast Out; and Why?

(c) 2011

In Alma 31-35, we read about the Zoramites. Alma and Amulek tie their observations in with their preaching, and there is a nice effect. One part is the use of the words “dross” and “cast out”.

The rich Zoramites have this point of view of the poor:
Alma 32:3 Therefore they were not permitted to enter into their synagogues to worship God, being esteemed as filthiness; therefore they were poor; yea, they were esteemed by their brethren as DROSS; therefore they were poor as to things of the world; and also they were poor in heart.

Alma ties this “cast out” into his speech:
Alma 32:9 Behold thy brother hath said, What shall we do?–for we are cast out of our synagogues, that we cannot worship our God.

Alma 32:12 I say unto you, it is well that ye are *cast out* of your synagogues, that ye may be humble, and that ye may learn wisdom; for it is necessary that ye should learn wisdom; for it is because that ye are *cast out*, that ye are despised of your brethren because of your exceeding poverty, that ye are brought to a lowliness of heart; for ye are necessarily brought to be humble.

Alma 32:24 And now, my beloved brethren, as ye have desired to know of me what ye shall do because ye are afflicted and *cast out*–now I do not desire that ye should suppose that I mean to judge you only according to that which is true–

Alma 33:2 And Alma said unto them: Behold, ye have said that ye could not worship your God because ye are *cast out* of your synagogues. But behold, I say unto you, if ye suppose that ye cannot worship God, ye do greatly err, and ye ought to search the scriptures; if ye suppose that they have taught you this, ye do not understand them.

Alma teaches on prayer, and links “cast out” to it (foreshadowing what will happen to them?):
Alma 33:10 Yea, and thou hast also heard me when I have been *cast out* and have been despised by mine enemies; yea, thou didst hear my cries, and wast angry with mine enemies, and thou didst visit them in thine anger with speedy destruction.

And Amulek ties “cast out” in this way, gives the godly point of view of “dross”, and explains the result of the wicked who have no charity:
Alma 34:28 And now behold, my beloved brethren, I say unto you, do not suppose that this is all; for after ye have done all these things, if ye turn away the needy, and the naked, and visit not the sick and afflicted, and impart of your substance, if ye have, to those who stand in need–I say unto you, if ye do not any of these things, behold, your prayer is vain, and availeth you nothing, and ye are as hypocrites who do deny the faith.

Alma 34:29 Therefore, if ye do not remember to be charitable, ye are as DROSS, which the refiners do *cast out*, (it being of no worth) and is trodden under foot of men.

Then the believers are “cast out” of the land by the rich Zoramite leaders:
Alma 35:6 And it came to pass that after they had found out the minds of all the people, those who were in favor of the words which had been spoken by Alma and his brethren were *cast out* of the land;…

They suffer the same fate that Jesus Christ will suffer:
Mosiah 15:5 And thus the flesh becoming subject to the Spirit, or the Son to the Father, being one God, suffereth temptation, and yieldeth not to the temptation, but suffereth himself to be mocked, and scourged, and *cast out, and disowned by his people*.

The “cast out” poor go to the people of Ammon:
Alma 35:6 …and they were many; and they came over also into the land of Jershon.

who are then told by the Zoramites to “cast out” the poor:
Alma 35:8 Now the people of the Zoramites were angry with the people of Ammon who were in Jershon, and the chief ruler of the Zoramites, being a very wicked man, sent over unto the people of Ammon desiring them that they should *cast out* of their land all those who came over from them into their land.

But the people of Ammon don’t. They are a perfect example of those who truly worship God—not hypocrites like the Zoramites—by accepting and serving the poor:
Alma 35:9 And he breathed out many threatenings against them. And now the people of Ammon did not fear their words; therefore *they did not cast them out, but they did receive all the poor* of the Zoramites that came over unto them; and they did nourish them, and did clothe them, and did give unto them lands for their inheritance; and they did administer unto them according to their wants.

The Book of Mormon makes it clear in many places that the unrepentant wicked always slay or cast out the righteous when they don’t help them; but in the end, it is the wicked that will be cast out from God’s presence:

**The wicked cast out the righteous:
1 Nephi 1:20
And when the Jews heard these things they were angry with him; yea, even as with the prophets of old, whom they had cast out, and stoned, and slain; and they also sought his life, that they might take it away. But behold, I, Nephi, will show unto you that the tender mercies of the Lord are over all those whom he hath chosen, because of their faith, to make them mighty even unto the power of deliverance.

2 Nephi 26:3
And after the Messiah shall come there shall be signs given unto my people of his birth, and also of his death and resurrection; and great and terrible shall that day be unto the wicked, for they shall perish; and they perish because they cast out the prophets, and the saints, and stone them, and slay them; wherefore the cry of the blood of the saints shall ascend up to God from the ground against them.

Jacob 7:26
And it came to pass that I, Jacob, began to be old; and the record of this people being kept on the other plates of Nephi, wherefore, I conclude this record, declaring that I have written according to the best of my knowledge, by saying that the time passed away with us, and also our lives passed away like as it were unto us a dream, we being a lonesome and a solemn people, wanderers, cast out from Jerusalem, born in tribulation, in a wilderness, and hated of our brethren, which caused wars and contentions; wherefore, we did mourn out our days.

Mosiah 17:3
But the king was more wroth, and caused that Alma should be cast out from among them, and sent his servants after him that they might slay him.

Alma 8:13
Now when the people had said this, and withstood all his words, and reviled him, and spit upon him, and caused that he should be cast out of their city, he departed thence and took his journey towards the city which was called Aaron.

Alma 10:23
But it is by the prayers of the righteous that ye are spared; now therefore, if ye will cast out the righteous from among you then will not the Lord stay his hand; but in his fierce anger he will come out against you; then ye shall be smitten by famine, and by pestilence, and by the sword; and the time is soon at hand except ye repent.

Alma 15:1
AND it came to pass that Alma and Amulek were commanded to depart out of that city; and they departed, and came out even into the land of Sidom; and behold, there they found all the people who had departed out of the land of Ammonihah, who had been cast out and stoned, because they believed in the words of Alma.

Alma 26:29
And we have entered into their houses and taught them, and we have taught them in their streets; yea, and we have taught them upon their hills; and we have also entered into their temples and their synagogues and taught them; and we have been cast out, and mocked, and spit upon, and smote upon our cheeks; and we have been stoned, and taken and bound with strong cords, and cast into prison; and through the power and wisdom of God we have been delivered again.

Helaman 13:24
Yea, wo unto this people, because of this time which has arrived, that ye do cast out the prophets, and do mock them, and cast stones at them, and do slay them, and do all manner of iniquity unto them, even as they did of old time.

3 Nephi 16:8
But wo, saith the Father, unto the unbelieving of the Gentiles–for notwithstanding they have come forth upon the face of this land, and have scattered my people who are of the house of Israel; and my people who are of the house of Israel have been cast out from among them, and have been trodden under feet by them;

3 Nephi 16:9
And because of the mercies of the Father unto the Gentiles, and also the judgments of the Father upon my people who are of the house of Israel, verily, verily, I say unto you, that after all this, and I have caused my people who are of the house of Israel to be smitten, and to be afflicted, and to be slain, and to be cast out from among them, and to become hated by them, and to become a hiss and a byword among them–

3 Nephi 16:15
But if they will not turn unto me, and hearken unto my voice, I will suffer them, yea, I will suffer my people, O house of Israel, that they shall go through among them, and shall tread them down, and they shall be as salt that hath lost its savor, which is thenceforth good for nothing but to be cast out, and to be trodden under foot of my people, O house of Israel.

Ether 13:15
And it came to pass that in that same year in which he was cast out from among the people there began to be a great war among the people, for there were many who rose up, who were mighty men, and sought to destroy Coriantumr by their secret plans of wickedness, of which hath been spoken.

**The righteous cast out devils:
1 Nephi 11:31
And he spake unto me again, saying: Look! And I looked, and I beheld the Lamb of God going forth among the children of men. And I beheld multitudes of people who were sick, and who were afflicted with all manner of diseases, and with devils and unclean spirits; and the angel spake and showed all these things unto me. And they were healed by the power of the Lamb of God; and the devils and the unclean spirits were cast out.

Mosiah 3:6
And he shall cast out devils, or the evil spirits which dwell in the hearts of the children of men.

3 Nephi 7:19
And in the name of Jesus did he cast out devils and unclean spirits; and even his brother did he raise from the dead, after he had been stoned and suffered death by the people.

3 Nephi 7:22
And as many as had devils cast out from them, and were healed of their sicknesses and their infirmities, did truly manifest unto the people that they had been wrought upon by the Spirit of God, and had been healed; and they did show forth signs also and did do some miracles among the people.

Mormon 9:24
And these signs shall follow them that believe–in my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; they shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick and they shall recover;

**God will cast out the wicked:
1 Nephi 15:35
And there is a place prepared, yea, even that awful hell of which I have spoken, and the devil is the preparator of it; wherefore the final state of the souls of men is to dwell in the kingdom of God, or to be cast out because of that justice of which I have spoken.

2 Nephi 25:29
And now behold, I say unto you that the right way is to believe in Christ, and deny him not; and Christ is the Holy One of Israel; wherefore ye must bow down before him, and worship him with all your might, mind, and strength, and your whole soul; and if ye do this ye shall in nowise be cast out.

Jacob 6:3
And how blessed are they who have labored diligently in his vineyard; and how cursed are they who shall be cast out into their own place! And the world shall be burned with fire.

Mosiah 16:2
And then shall the wicked be cast out, and they shall have cause to howl, and weep, and wail, and gnash their teeth; and this because they would not hearken unto the voice of the Lord; therefore the Lord redeemeth them not.

Alma 5:25
I say unto you, Nay; except ye make our Creator a liar from the beginning, or suppose that he is a liar from the beginning, ye cannot suppose that such can have place in the kingdom of heaven; but they shall be cast out for they are the children of the kingdom of the devil.

Alma 11:2
Now if a man owed another, and he would not pay that which he did owe, he was complained of to the judge; and the judge executed authority, and sent forth officers that the man should be brought before him; and he judged the man according to the law and the evidences which were brought against him, and thus the man was compelled to pay that which he owed, or be stripped, or be cast out from among the people as a thief and a robber.

Alma 40:13
And then shall it come to pass, that the spirits of the wicked, yea, who are evil–for behold, they have no part nor portion of the Spirit of the Lord; for behold, they chose evil works rather than good; therefore the spirit of the devil did enter into them, and take possession of their house–and these shall be cast out into outer darkness; there shall be weeping, and wailing, and gnashing of teeth, and this because of their own iniquity, being led captive by the will of the devil.

Alma 40:26
But behold, an awful death cometh upon the wicked; for they die as to things pertaining to things of righteousness; for they are unclean, and no unclean thing can inherit the kingdom of God; but they are cast out, and consigned to partake of the fruits of their labors or their works, which have been evil; and they drink the dregs of a bitter cup.

Helaman 12:25
And I would that all men might be saved. But we read that in the great and last day there are some who shall be cast out, yea, who shall be cast off from the presence of the Lord;

3 Nephi 12:13
Verily, verily, I say unto you, I give unto you to be the salt of the earth; but if the salt shall lose its savor wherewith shall the earth be salted? The salt shall be thenceforth good for nothing, but to be cast out and to be trodden under foot of men.

Mormon 9:29
See that ye are not baptized unworthily; see that ye partake not of the sacrament of Christ unworthily; but see that ye do all things in worthiness, and do it in the name of Jesus Christ, the Son of the living God; and if ye do this, and endure to the end, ye will in nowise be cast out.

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