Book of Mormon Notes– How deep can you dig?

2008, December 31

“The Book of Mormon as Epic Hero: Part 1” by grego

The Book of Mormon as Epic Hero
by grego

(This is a very quick rough draft, a little mixed up… you’ve got the picture, right? ;) )

Not the first, I’ve often thought of the Book of Mormon as a type of an epic, and full of succinct hero’s journeys. (Other works show heroes and the Book of Mormon as an epic; see “The Journey of the Hero: Archetypes of Earthly Adventure and Spiritual Passage in 1 Nephi”, by Tod R. Harris; JBMS 6:2 , and especially “The Book of Mormon: Designed for Our Day”, by Richard Rust in RBBM v2/1; references courtesy of Kevin Christensen).

But there is one essential part of an epic that seems to be missing: who is the epic hero in the book? Who goes on what has become known as the monomyth, or the “hero’s journey” (such as written about by Joseph Campbell, etc.)?

No one lives through the entire story of the Book of Mormon, and could be called the hero of the epic–especially someone earthly. One could say that instead of being a typical epic, it is a collection of condensed and partial “mini-epics” and “mini-heroes”, such as Lehi, Nephi, Alma the elder, Alma the younger, Ammon, Mormon, Ether, Moroni. While many accounts of heroes are given, none of them connect it all. One might say that the epic hero is an archetype–such as “the righteous man”–or such, instead of an actual person per se.

One day, it occurred to me that the Book of Mormon goes one up on most epics and does what very few epics have done, and stands as the epitome of epic (no doubt to the chagrin of many anti-LDS): instead of just being an epic talking about a hero on his journey, the Book of Mormon–the plates and the book itself–is the epic hero, the main character, undergoing the epic journey, and it records its journey in its own pages.

That was wild.

This is a little similar to Tolkien’s “ring” in his trilogy; but the Book of Mormon was ahead of it timewise, and instead of being the purpose of the adventure, the redundancy/ irony of it being a book about itself, is somewhat different.

Here’s a quick look at most of the stages of a hero’s journey, which can be literal or figurative/ allegorical (of the many available, here’s a simple one for this: ):

*Birth/ special circumstances: plates created by prophet, by command of the Lord, similar to the brass plates; final created by a compilation/ abridgment/ formulation by a prophet, by command of the Lord

*Call to adventure, possible refusal: the making and the writing of the plates; some writers write a lot, some write one verse.

*Helpers/ amulet/ aid from a protective figure, often supernatural: the plates and all those involved with them receive divine help to keep them secure and safe for their purpose; see Nephi, Alma, Mormon, Moroni. Included along with them are all the other plates, the plates of brass, the sword of Laban, and the Liahona.

*Crossing the threshold/ point of no return (into the unknown, into the adventure): Nephi leaves the Lamanites and takes the brass plates, then starts the plates–and from the point of Nephite/ Lamanite division, the plates and their keepers are in danger of being destroyed.

*Tests/ tasks/ trials: the Lamanites want to destroy the record keepers and their records (the plates); some of the writers don’t feel righteous; it’s hard to write on the plates; there’s not much space; maybe the writers aren’t sure when they’ll die sometimes; problems choosing the next owner/ record-keeper; knowing what to write; the compilation, abridgment, and editing by Mormon and Moroni.

*Vision quest/ initiation/ meeting the goddess: writers led by the Spirit; goddesses are mercy, charity?

*Reaching bottom/ apparent defeat or death: the final Lamanite vs. Nephite battle.

*Marriage/ baptism/ blessing/ apotheosis: records/ plates are used to convert the Lamanites, sustain the Nephite Saints?

*Receiving a gift or boon from God: Mormon’s addition of the small plates to the large plates; the addition of Ether to the record.

*Helpers (along the way): the writers have the help of God in keeping and preserving the plates. The scriptures are printed and put forth. Charity and overlooking small things in appreciation of the big picture is needed to accept the book.

*Final battle: the Lamanites have sworn to kill all Nephites and to destroy their records; Moroni escapes the Lamanites and carries the plates away.

*Flight/ magic flight/ rescue: an actual flight by Moroni to keep the plates safe; the plates remain hidden, waiting the due time of the Lord.

*Rescue from without: the Urim and Thummim, the seer stone are prepared and must be used in conjunction with the plates in order to use them/ “work them” properly. The angel Moroni makes sure that another, Joseph Smith, unburies the plates and is prepared to bring their contents to light.

*Return: Joseph Smith finds the plates and translates them; they have come back in a different form to fulfill their main purpose. The plates go back to Moroni after their translation, yet their translation remains to fulfill its purposes.

*Elixir/ sharing gift or elixir with the world: the book is instrumental in the gathering of Israel, the establishment of the Church, the conversion of many, the teaching of knowledge, understanding previous words, bringing people to Christ and oneness and spiritual healing, the fulfillment of and restoration of past promises, the tool of the Lord in the final days. Comments that the future has been seen and prepared for specifically in the book. Also, the Book of Mormon contains a promise to all its readers; an invitation to partake of the elixir and change.

*Future/ preparing for next adventure: When readers accept the invitation, the book is renewed, its power active again. There are still parts of the book that have yet to be translated. The Book of Mormon will be used as one of the great books in the Judgment Day, and its writers will be at the judgment bar of God.

“Part 2” later.

Bookmark and Share

2008, December 30

The Judgment Day

The Judgment Day
by grego

The Book of Mormon speaks often about the Judgment (see “judge” and “judgment” in the index), but it doesn’t cover it in depth. In fact, most scriptures and words we have don’t explain a whole lot about it. So instead of talking about what they say, and expounding on them, I’m gong to share something different.

The longer I live, the more I see the Judgment Day as an incredibly complex and interesting topic. I have often written and told others that the Judgment (Spirit World or/ and Day) will be an incredibly eye-popping experience for most everyone.

Here are some reasons I hold my opinion:

1. All men will be judged in justice and *mercy*. Mercy will claim what it can, then justice will have the rest.
2. No one has any clue where someone “should” have ended up.
3. We don’t know how much someone is responsible for what they think, say, and do.
4. We don’t know who had what good things and what bad things, nor who has received extra help, and for what reason(s).
5. We all have filters and have been indoctrinated to look at things in a certain way, including believing certain things about specific people. We have little to no clue as to whether “it” is true or not, especially if we weren’t there and didn’t know them.
6. We can only see and hear some things; many things are unseen and unknown to us.
7. We can easily misread someone’s intentions, thoughts, words, and actions.
8. We don’t know others’ hearts and repentance.

As you read those statements, did you remember a time when someone said something about you, or a friend, that wasn’t true? When people hear and read about the LDS/ Mormon Church, is it all positive and truthful, or maybe… not?

So, be ready to be surprised! As one friend said, he and I will be on the sidelines, sipping sodas and having a great time… ;) I guarantee that you will see people going to the celestial kingdom that you surely thought were going to the telestial kingdom, and people going to the telestial kingdom (or maybe worse) that you thought were going to the celestial kingdom.

Bookmark and Share

2008, December 25

“Joseph Smith on the Sun (from the Book of Abraham)” by grego

“Joseph Smith on the Sun (from the Book of Abraham)”
by grego

From the description of Facsimile 2 (found at )
“Fig. 5. Is called in Egyptian Enish-go-on-dosh; this is one of the governing planets also, and is said by the Egyptians to be the Sun, and to borrow its light from Kolob through the medium of Kae-e-vanrash, which is the grand Key, or, in other words, the governing power, which governs fifteen other fixed planets or stars, as also Floeese or the Moon, the Earth and the Sun in their annual revolutions. This planet receives its power through the medium of Kli-flos-is-es, or Hah-ko-kau-beam, the stars represented by numbers 22 and 23, receiving light from the revolutions of Kolob.”

I have heard many people ridicule this as just absolute nonsense and stupidity. “Everyone knows the sun is self-powered, and the earth has no power at all, and no relationship with another celestial body–other than gravity, which is an external force.” Of course, that might not be the truth, but that is what is taught in basic science education… Then, I was reading a little, and found just a few interesting quotes from a few books about science (and mythology). There is much more I’m not putting in here, but I have listed sources for those interested in finding out more. Here are some exerpts.

From “The Healing Sun Code” by William Henry (some very interesting and/or cooky stuff much of the time, in my opinion, but this is scientific reporting here):
“In 1932, Karl Jansky, a Bell Telephone Laboratories engineer, was investigating sources of interference to recently opened trans-Atlantic short wave radiotelephone circuits… Noise always increased when Jansky pointed his rod at the stars. By using a star map, he discovered that the waves came from the center of our Milky Way Galaxy at 26 degrees of Sagittarius.
What lurks at the center of our galaxy that produced the hiss that caught Jansky’s ear? From the vantage point of some 23 thousand light years away it is difficult to determine. A cloud of dust obscures the Core, making it invisible to the human eye and even to optical telescopes. But not to Jansky’s radio telescope.
During the early 1960’s astronomers began to realize that the massive object that forms the core of our Milky Way Galaxy periodically becomes active.3 The cores of all spiral galaxies cycle through a similar phase. During its active period, our galactic core is a cauldron of chaos. It spews out fierce quasar-like barrages of cosmic rays, with a total energy output equal to hundreds of thousands of supernova explosions.4 In 1965 A.A. Penzias and R.W. Wilson were conducting radio astronomy experiments with the ultrasensitive horn antenna at Crawford Hill, New Jersey but were frustrated by a noise in its receiving system, a background noise that remained constant no matter which direction they scanned. This made no sense and they suspected that it came from bird droppings on the antenna, but after a careful cleaning the noise remained. They then realized that the noise corresponded exactly with the “background radiation” posited by cosmologists who favored the Big Bang theory of creation. Penzias and Wilson had discovered the “afterglow” of the cosmic Big Bang. They had heard the Echo of Creation, and were awarded a Nobel Prize for their discovery.
Today radio astronomers monitor the activity of the Galactic Core on a daily basis. They also study explosions from the cores of neighboring galaxies. Galactic Core outbursts are the most energetic phenomenon taking place in the universe.8
The active, quasar-like core of spiral galaxy PG 0052+251, for example, is seen to radiate 7 times as much energy as comes from all of the galaxy’s stars. Most of this is emitted in the form of high energy cosmic ray electrons accompanied by electromagnetic radiation ranging from radio wave frequencies on up to X ray and gamma ray frequencies.
When Karl Jansky discovered that the Galactic Core ‘hissed’ he was affirming a belief long held by ancient mystics and shamans that our galaxy was an egg surrounded by a serpent. This egg has a heart, a Central Sun that beats and sends divine vibrations that spread through the galaxy. In other words it hisses. In a league of their own apart from the X-ray and gamma ray radiations, these cosmic vibrations were considered to be a tremendous source of vital spiritual energy that could heal the body and soul and bring immortality. The Central Sun or Spiritual Sun, said these medicine people, is, in fact, the Healing Sun.”

Then, this, from David Wilcock’s “The Divine Cosmos” (
Kozyrev’s work and others have shown us that all matter harnesses torsion waves to sustain its existence… Again, the key is that these geometric forms are being created by vibration. In order for this vibration to occur, an atom must be constantly absorbing and radiating aetheric energy at the same time… 
This is another valuable piece of data, as it shows us that the center of the galaxy is actually our primary source of instreaming torsion wave energy. In this case, the torsion waves appear to be propagating in tandem with the X-ray wavelengths of the electromagnetic energy spectrum. Even though the activity of the Sun can increase or decrease the strength of torsion waves coming into the Earth, without the input from the Galactic Center we will have much less energy available to us.

 Parr found that this sudden increase of energy leading to pinch-off would occur most reliably every year on Dec. 13-16, and his measurements were taken over a 13-year period. Eventually, Parr discovered that at this time, the Earth’s orbital path was intersecting an imaginary line that could be drawn between the Sun and the belt stars of Orion. This led Parr to conclude that an active energy conduit of some sort exists between the Sun and the stars of Orion’s belt. This also falls in line with our expectations related to torsion fields, as there will be streams of aetheric energy connecting all the stars together and flowing between them. The closer we are to a star, the stronger the stream will be, and in the case of Orion’s belt we have three central stars in close proximity with four other close stars surrounding them in a giant “X” shape. Thus, the shape of the stars in the Orion constellation forms a passive torsion generator in its own right.”

Seems like he’s there again, that ol’ Joseph Smith, getting there earlier than he should have! Is there more, from any others, that give credence to what Joseph Smith wrote?

Bookmark and Share

2008, December 24

Book of Mormon | Come Know Jesus Christ vs. The Mysteries of God Are Unknowable by grego

Book of Mormon | Come Know Jesus Christ vs. The Mysteries of God Are Unknowable
by grego

Merry Christmas! Years ago I attended another church’s service, and the topic was “The Mystery of God”. The Book of Mormon also talks about the mysteries of God. Yet the similarities stopped there.

The preacher spoke about God, the Great Unknown. “God is a mystery, and that’s why we describe him as we do. Don’t bother thinking about him; just obey the commandments. We cannot know him; no man can. He’s everywhere and nowhere.” What a gloomy message for me…

The Book of Mormon prophets, on the other hand, admit that God is a mystery; but, he is a mystery that every person can solve, so to say. The Book of Mormon is replete with not only teachings about this, but personal examples of this happening, and invitations for all to know for themselves. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints believes in the words of Jesus, to “come unto [Him]”, to “come follow [Him]”, and to “know God that [we] might have eternal life”. Here is a smattering, since much of the Book of Mormon is actually a great exposition of God making Himself and His will known to man:

Forms of “pray” (pray, prays, prayer, prayers) appear about 178 times in the Book of Mormon.

The word “angel” appears about 140 times in the Book of Mormon, and most of those references are about making the things of God known unto man.

Forms of the word “reveal” appear about 17 times, and forms of the “revelation” appear about 34 times.

1 Nephi 1:1
I, Nephi, having been born of goodly parents, therefore I was taught somewhat in all the learning of my father; and having seen many afflictions in the course of my days, nevertheless, having been highly favored of the Lord in all my days; yea, having had a great knowledge of the goodness and the mysteries of God, therefore I make a record of my proceedings in my days.

1 Nephi 1:8
And being thus overcome with the Spirit, he was carried away in a vision, even that he saw the heavens open, and he thought he saw God sitting upon his throne, surrounded with numberless concourses of angels in the attitude of singing and praising their God.
1 Nephi 1:9
And it came to pass that he saw One descending out of the midst of heaven, and he beheld that his luster was above that of the sun at noon-day.

1 Nephi 1:14
And it came to pass that when my father had read and seen many great and marvelous things, he did exclaim many things unto the Lord; such as: Great and marvelous are thy works, O Lord God Almighty! Thy throne is high in the heavens, and thy power, and goodness, and mercy are over all the inhabitants of the earth; and, because thou art merciful, thou wilt not suffer those who come unto thee that they shall perish!
1 Nephi 1:15
And after this manner was the language of my father in the praising of his God; for his soul did rejoice, and his whole heart was filled, because of the things which he had seen, yea, which the Lord had shown unto him.

1 Nephi 2:16
And it came to pass that I, Nephi, being exceedingly young, nevertheless being large in stature, and also having great desires to know of the mysteries of God, wherefore, I did cry unto the Lord; and behold he did visit me, and did soften my heart that I did believe all the words which had been spoken by my father; wherefore, I did not rebel against him like unto my brothers.

1 Nephi 10:19
For he that diligently seeketh shall find; and the mysteries of God shall be unfolded unto them, by the power of the Holy Ghost, as well in these times as in times of old, and as well in times of old as in times to come; wherefore, the course of the Lord is one eternal round.

Jacob 1:4
And if there were preaching which was sacred, or revelation which was great, or prophesying, that I should engraven the heads of them upon these plates, and touch upon them as much as it were possible, for Christ’s sake, and for the sake of our people.
Jacob 1:5
For because of faith and great anxiety, it truly had been made manifest unto us concerning our people, what things should happen unto them.
Jacob 1:6
And we also had many revelations, and the spirit of much prophecy; wherefore, we knew of Christ and his kingdom, which should come.
Jacob 1:7
Wherefore we labored diligently among our people, that we might persuade them to come unto Christ, and partake of the goodness of God, that they might enter into his rest, lest by any means he should swear in his wrath they should not enter in, as in the provocation in the days of temptation while the children of Israel were in the wilderness.
Jacob 1:8
Wherefore, we would to God that we could persuade all men not to rebel against God, to provoke him to anger, but that all men would believe in Christ, and view his death, and suffer his cross and bear the shame of the world; wherefore, I, Jacob, take it upon me to fulfil the commandment of my brother Nephi.

Jacob 4:3
Now in this thing we do rejoice; and we labor diligently to engraven these words upon plates, hoping that our beloved brethren and our children will receive them with thankful hearts, and look upon them that they may learn with joy and not with sorrow, neither with contempt, concerning their first parents.
Jacob 4:4
For, for this intent have we written these things, that they may know that we knew of Christ, and we had a hope of his glory many hundred years before his coming; and not only we ourselves had a hope of his glory, but also all the holy prophets which were before us.
Jacob 4:5
Behold, they believed in Christ and worshiped the Father in his name, and also we worship the Father in his name. And for this intent we keep the law of Moses, it pointing our souls to him; and for this cause it is sanctified unto us for righteousness, even as it was accounted unto Abraham in the wilderness to be obedient unto the commands of God in offering up his son Isaac, which is a similitude of God and his Only Begotten Son.
Jacob 4:6
Wherefore, we search the prophets, and we have many revelations and the spirit of prophecy; and having all these witnesses we obtain a hope, and our faith becometh unshaken, insomuch that we truly can command in the name of Jesus and the very trees obey us, or the mountains, or the waves of the sea.
Jacob 4:7
Nevertheless, the Lord God showeth us our weakness that we may know that it is by his grace, and his great condescensions unto the children of men, that we have power to do these things.
Jacob 4:8
Behold, great and marvelous are the works of the Lord. How unsearchable are the depths of the mysteries of him; and it is impossible that man should find out all his ways. And no man knoweth of his ways save it be revealed unto him; wherefore, brethren, despise not the revelations of God.
Jacob 4:9
For behold, by the power of his word man came upon the face of the earth, which earth was created by the power of his word. Wherefore, if God being able to speak and the world was, and to speak and man was created, O then, why not able to command the earth, or the workmanship of his hands upon the face of it, according to his will and pleasure?
Jacob 4:10
Wherefore, brethren, seek not to counsel the Lord, but to take counsel from his hand. For behold, ye yourselves know that he counseleth in wisdom, and in justice, and in great mercy, over all his works.
Jacob 4:11
Wherefore, beloved brethren, be reconciled unto him through the atonement of Christ, his Only Begotten Son, and ye may obtain a resurrection, according to the power of the resurrection which is in Christ, and be presented as the first-fruits of Christ unto God, having faith, and obtained a good hope of glory in him before he manifesteth himself in the flesh.

Amaleki says:
Omni 1:25
And it came to pass that I began to be old; and, having no seed, and knowing king Benjamin to be a just man before the Lord, wherefore, I shall deliver up these plates unto him, exhorting all men to come unto God, the Holy One of Israel, and believe in prophesying, and in revelations, and in the ministering of angels, and in the gift of speaking with tongues, and in the gift of interpreting languages, and in all things which are good; for there is nothing which is good save it comes from the Lord; and that which is evil cometh from the devil.

Mosiah 2:9
And these are the words which he spake and caused to be written, saying: My brethren, all ye that have assembled yourselves together, you that can hear my words which I shall speak unto you this day; for I have not commanded you to come up hither to trifle with the words which I shall speak, but that you should hearken unto me, and open your ears that ye may hear, and your hearts that ye may understand, and your minds that the mysteries of God may be unfolded to your view.

Mosiah 8:19
And now, when Ammon had made an end of speaking these words the king rejoiced exceedingly, and gave thanks to God, saying: Doubtless a great mystery is contained within these plates, and these interpreters were doubtless prepared for the purpose of unfolding all such mysteries to the children of men.

Alma 9:20
Yea, after having been such a highly favored people of the Lord; yea, after having been favored above every other nation, kindred, tongue, or people; after having had all things made known unto them, according to their desires, and their faith, and prayers, of that which has been, and which is, and which is to come;
Alma 9:21
Having been visited by the Spirit of God; having conversed with angels, and having been spoken unto by the voice of the Lord; and having the spirit of prophecy, and the spirit of revelation, and also many gifts, the gift of speaking with tongues, and the gift of preaching, and the gift of the Holy Ghost, and the gift of translation;
Alma 9:22
Yea, and after having been delivered of God out of the land of Jerusalem, by the hand of the Lord; having been saved from famine, and from sickness, and all manner of diseases of every kind; and they having waxed strong in battle, that they might not be destroyed; having been brought out of bondage time after time, and having been kept and preserved until now; and they have been prospered until they are rich in all manner of things–

Alma 10:5
Nevertheless, after all this, I never have known much of the ways of the Lord, and his mysteries and marvelous power. I said I never had known much of these things; but behold, I mistake, for I have seen much of his mysteries and his marvelous power; yea, even in the preservation of the lives of this people.
Alma 10:6
Nevertheless, I did harden my heart, for I was called many times and I would not hear; therefore I knew concerning these things, yet I would not know; therefore I went on rebelling against God, in the wickedness of my heart, even until the fourth day of this seventh month, which is in the tenth year of the reign of the judges.

Alma 12:9
And now Alma began to expound these things unto him, saying: It is given unto many to know the mysteries of God; nevertheless they are laid under a strict command that they shall not impart only according to the portion of his word which he doth grant unto the children of men, according to the heed and diligence which they give unto him.
Alma 12:10
And therefore, he that will harden his heart, the same receiveth the lesser portion of the word; and he that will not harden his heart, to him is given the greater portion of the word, until it is given unto him to know the mysteries of God until he know them in full.

Alma 26:22
Yea, he that repenteth and exerciseth faith, and bringeth forth good works, and prayeth continually without ceasing–unto such it is given to know the mysteries of God; yea, unto such it shall be given to reveal things which never have been revealed; yea, and it shall be given unto such to bring thousands of souls to repentance, even as it has been given unto us to bring these our brethren to repentance.

Alma 36:5
Now, behold, I say unto you, if I had not been born of God I should not have known these things; but God has, by the mouth of his holy angel, made these things known unto me, not of any worthiness of myself;

Alma 36:22
Yea, methought I saw, even as our father Lehi saw, God sitting upon his throne, surrounded with numberless concourses of angels, in the attitude of singing and praising their God; yea, and my soul did long to be there.

3 Nephi 7:15
And it came to pass that Nephi–having been visited by angels and also the voice of the Lord, therefore having seen angels, and being eye-witness, and having had power given unto him that he might know concerning the ministry of Christ, and also being eye-witness to their quick return from righteousness unto their wickedness and abominations;

3 Nephi 7:21
And it came to pass that the thirty and first year did pass away, and there were but few who were converted unto the Lord; but as many as were converted did truly signify unto the people that they had been visited by the power and Spirit of God, which was in Jesus Christ, in whom they believed.

3 Nephi 28:26
But behold, I have seen them, and they have ministered unto me.
Mormon 8:10
And there are none that do know the true God save it be the disciples of Jesus, who did tarry in the land until the wickedness of the people was so great that the Lord would not suffer them to remain with the people; and whether they be upon the face of the land no man knoweth.
Mormon 8:11
But behold, my father and I have seen them, and they have ministered unto us.

Mormon 1:15
And I, being fifteen years of age and being somewhat of a sober mind, therefore I was visited of the Lord, and tasted and knew of the goodness of Jesus.
3 Nephi 28:25
Behold, I was about to write the names of those who were never to taste of death, but the Lord forbade; therefore I write them not, for they are hid from the world.

Ether 2:14
And it came to pass at the end of four years that the Lord came again unto the brother of Jared, and stood in a cloud and talked with him. And for the space of three hours did the Lord talk with the brother of Jared, and chastened him because he remembered not to call upon the name of the Lord.

Ether 3:13
And when he had said these words, behold, the Lord showed himself unto him, and said: Because thou knowest these things ye are redeemed from the fall; therefore ye are brought back into my presence; therefore I show myself unto you.
Ether 3:14
Behold, I am he who was prepared from the foundation of the world to redeem my people. Behold, I am Jesus Christ. I am the Father and the Son. In me shall all mankind have life, and that eternally, even they who shall believe on my name; and they shall become my sons and my daughters.

Ether 3:17
And now, as I, Moroni, said I could not make a full account of these things which are written, therefore it sufficeth me to say that Jesus showed himself unto this man in the spirit, even after the manner and in the likeness of the same body even as he showed himself unto the Nephites.
Ether 3:18
And he ministered unto him even as he ministered unto the Nephites; and all this, that this man might know that he was God, because of the many great works which the Lord had showed unto him.
Ether 3:19
And because of the knowledge of this man he could not be kept from beholding within the veil; and he saw the finger of Jesus, which, when he saw, he fell with fear; for he knew that it was the finger of the Lord; and he had faith no longer, for he knew, nothing doubting.
Ether 3:20
Wherefore, having this perfect knowledge of God, he could not be kept from within the veil; therefore he saw Jesus; and he did minister unto him.

Moroni 10:30
And again I would exhort you that ye would come unto Christ, and lay hold upon every good gift, and touch not the evil gift, nor the unclean thing.

Moroni 10:32
Yea, come unto Christ, and be perfected in him, and deny yourselves of all ungodliness; and if ye shall deny yourselves of all ungodliness, and love God with all your might, mind and strength, then is his grace sufficient for you, that by his grace ye may be perfect in Christ; and if by the grace of God ye are perfect in Christ, ye can in nowise deny the power of God.

2008, December 18

Book of Mormon | Real or Imaginary–Brant Gardner and David Bokovoy’s Claim of Mormon’s Bias against the Lamanites? Part 4 by grego

Book of Mormon | Real or Imaginary–Brant Gardner and David Bokovoy’s Claim of Mormon’s Bias against the Lamanites? Part 4
by grego

But what about the Lamanite buildings?
One of the strongest arguments supporters of Mormon’s Lamanite bias rely on the references to some Lamanites having cities and other structures, thereby proving they weren’t lazy, unsophisticated, only dwelt in tents, etc. In addition, perhaps this is a sore point for some apologists because as Book of Mormon geography is matched up with Central American geography, there are plenty of buildings that were built in the time period that the Lamanites possessed that land. If that were the case, it seems there might be a predicament.

However, there are some major problems with this argument. The descriptions of the Lamanites obviously do not include every Lamanite. These were the Lamanites that the Nephites were in contact with. Makes sense, right? In fact, remember that in one description the Nephite writer distinguishes between Lamanites. Most problematic with this argument, though: the Lamanites inherited many pre-built buildings from the Nephites!

They did this, for example, when the Nephites were led away from the land of their inheritance the first time. From the time of Nephi to the time of Mosiah, the Nephites were building buildings. That’s 270-420 years or so, and from the text I gather it’s very close to the 420 mark. That’s a lot of time to build buildings.

These following scriptures show that the Nephites built buildings, that the Lamanites took over the buildings, and that the Nephites even built more buildings in some Lamanite land after the body had left for a first takeover:
2 Nephi 5:15 “And I did teach my people to build buildings…”

Jarom 1:8 And we multiplied exceedingly, and spread upon the face of the land, and became exceedingly rich in gold, and in silver, and in precious things, and in fine workmanship of wood, in *buildings*, and in machinery, and also in iron and copper, and brass and steel, making all manner of tools of every kind to till the ground, and weapons of war–yea, the sharp pointed arrow, and the quiver, and the dart, and the javelin, and all preparations for war.

Omni 1:12 …Mosiah, who was made king over the land of Zarahemla; for behold, he being warned of the Lord that *he should flee out of the land of Nephi*, and as many as would hearken unto the voice of the Lord should also depart out of the land with him, into the wilderness–
Omni 1:13 … and they were led by the power of his arm, through the wilderness until they came down into the land which is called the land of Zarahemla.

Omni 1:27 And now I would speak somewhat concerning a certain number who went up into the wilderness to *return to the land of Nephi*; for there was a large number who were *desirous to possess the land of their inheritance*.

Words Of Mormon 1:13 And it came to pass also that the armies of *the Lamanites came down out of the land of Nephi*, to battle against his people…

Mosiah 7:21 And ye all are witnesses this day, that Zeniff, who was made king over this people, he being over-zealous to *inherit the land of his fathers, therefore being deceived by the cunning and craftiness of king Laman*…
Mosiah 9:1 I, Zeniff, having been taught in all the language of the Nephites, and having had a *knowledge of the land of Nephi, or of the land of our fathers’ first inheritance*…
Mosiah 9:6 And *I went in unto the king, and he covenanted with me that I might possess the land of Lehi-Nephi, and the land of Shilom*.
Mosiah 9:8 And **we* began to build buildings, and to repair the walls of the city*, yea, even the *walls of the city of Lehi-Nephi, and the city of Shilom*.

Mosiah 11:8 And it came to pass that *king Noah built many elegant and spacious buildings*; and he ornamented them with fine work of wood, and of all manner of precious things, of gold, and of silver, and of iron, and of brass, and of ziff, and of copper;
Mosiah 11:9 And *he also built him a spacious palace*, and a throne in the midst thereof, all of which was of fine wood and was ornamented with gold and silver and with precious things.
Mosiah 11:10 And he also caused that his workmen should work all manner of fine work within the walls of *the temple*, of fine wood, and of copper, and of brass.
Mosiah 11:12 And it came to pass that *he built a tower near the temple*…
Mosiah 11:13 And it came to pass that *he caused many buildings to be built in the land Shilom*; and he caused a great tower to be built on the hill north of the land Shilom…

Mosiah 23:5 And [Alma and his people, who left king Noah] pitched their tents, and began to till the ground, and *began to build buildings*; yea, *they were industrious, and did labor exceedingly*.
Mosiah 23:20 And it came to pass that they did multiply and prosper exceedingly in the land of Helam; and *they built a city, which they called the city of Helam*.
Mosiah 23:29 And it came to pass the the Lord did soften the hearts of the Lamanites. And Alma and his brethren went forth and delivered themselves up into their hands; and *the Lamanites took possession of the land of Helam*.

Alma 54:12 And behold, if ye do not this, I will come against you with my armies; yea, even I will arm my women and my children, and I will come against you, and *I will follow you even into your own land, which is the land of our first inheritance*…
Alma 54:13 Behold, I am in my anger, and also my people; ye have sought to murder us, and we have only sought to defend ourselves. But behold, if ye seek to destroy us more we will seek to destroy you; yea, and *we will seek our land, the land of our first inheritance*.

These scriptures show that Lamanites AND former Nephites built together, seemingly under the former Nephites’ supervision:
Alma 21:2 Now the Lamanites *and the Amalekites and the people of Amulon had built a great city*, which was called Jerusalem.

Alma 22:7 And Aaron answered him and said unto him: Believest thou that there is a God? And the king said: I know that *the Amalekites* say that there is a God, and I have granted unto them that *they should build sanctuaries*, that they may assemble themselves together to worship him. And if now thou sayest there is a God, behold I will believe.

These scriptures remind us that this (supervision and construction by former Nephites) might have been the pattern from the very beginning for any actual Lamanite buildings:
Alma 47:35 And it came to pass that Amalickiah sought the favor of the queen, and took her unto him to wife; and thus by his fraud, and by the assistance of his cunning servants, he obtained the kingdom; yea, he was acknowledged king throughout all the land, among all the people of the Lamanites, who were composed of the Lamanites and the Lemuelites and the Ishmaelites, *and all the dissenters of the Nephites, from the reign of Nephi down to the present time*.

Words Of Mormon 1:16 And after there had been false prophets, and false preachers and teachers among the people, and all these having been punished according to their crimes; and after there having been much contention and *many dissensions away unto the Lamanites*, behold, it came to pass that king Benjamin, with the assistance of the holy prophets who were among his people–

Note that there is *never* a reference in the Book of Mormon to the Lamanites building or having built anything by themselves. That doesn’t mean that they didn’t; it just means that there is internal consistency in my argument for factual descriptions by Mormon and the other writers, not for a negative Lamanite bias.

Have any references possibly been misunderstood? Here are some:
When king Lamoni went down, people ran into the king’s “house”. And it seems it was pretty easy for anyone to see, which means I doubt it was “three doors down the hall to the right in an enclosed room”. Though it might have, I have a hard time seeing that happening in a big palace/ castle like we’re used to thinking of…:
Alma 19:18 And they began to assemble themselves together unto *the house of the king*. And *there came a multitude, and to their astonishment they beheld the king, and the queen, and their servants prostrate upon the earth*, and they all lay there as though they were dead; and they also saw Ammon, and behold, he was a Nephite.

And here, notice the big king’s house/ palace:
Alma 22:1 Now, as Ammon was thus teaching the people of Lamoni continually, we will return to the account of Aaron and his brethren; for after he departed from the land of Middoni he was led by the Spirit to the land of Nephi, even to *the house of the king which was over all the land* save it were the land of Ishmael; and he was the father of Lamoni.
Alma 22:2 And it came to pass that he went in unto him *into the king’s palace*, with his brethren, and bowed himself before the king, and said unto him: Behold, O king, we are the brethren of Ammon, whom thou hast delivered out of prison.

So: please, please, please, the next time you hear anyone, including a highly-esteemed LDS Church member apologist claim that Mormon has an nonfactual bias or “personal thing” going on that strongly influences the Book of Mormon, remember it’s very possible and likely to reject those claims and comments as complete, unfounded rubbish.


(see, for example).

Bookmark and Share

2008, December 17

Book of Mormon | Real or Imaginary–Brant Gardner and David Bokovoy’s Claim of Mormon’s Bias against the Lamanites? Part 3 by grego

Book of Mormon | Real or Imaginary–Brant Gardner and David Bokovoy’s Claim of Mormon’s Bias against the Lamanites? Part 3
by grego

Are there places in the Book of Mormon where good things are said of the Lamanites?
I’ve already written and posted about compassion in the Book of Mormon. That would be a good place to start.
Here, the Lamanites are merciful because of compassion; and slavery is more profitable than killing:
Mosiah 19:14 And it came to pass that the Lamanites had compassion on them, for they were charmed with the beauty of their women.
Mosiah 19:15 Therefore the Lamanites did spare their lives, and took them captives and carried them back to the land of Nephi, and granted unto them that they might possess the land, under the conditions that they would deliver up king Noah into the hands of the Lamanites, and deliver up their property, even one half of all they possessed, one half of their gold, and their silver, and all their precious things, and thus they should pay tribute to the king of the Lamanites from year to year.
Is it biased to say that the Lamanites were “charmed with the beauty of their women”? I’ve lived in lands among many races, and I’ve seen this as typical of darker men towards lighter women, not atypical. Is it true, that lighter women are more beautiful than darker women? That’s not the point–to those men they were charmed by their beauty, and that’s what the Book of Mormon is saying.

What did Jacob, who was an original Nephite, say?
Jacob 3:5 Behold, *the Lamanites your brethren, whom ye hate because of their filthiness and the cursing which hath come upon their skins*, are *more righteous than you*; for they have not forgotten the commandment of the Lord, which was given unto our father–that they should have save it were one wife, and concubines they should have none, and there should not be whoredoms committed among them.
Well, it seems that some of the early Nephites didn’t like the Lamanites; slightly understandable, given that the Lamanites were often trying to kill them or such. Whoops… already in Jacob we see that the Nephites and Lamanites aren’t clearly split the righteous versus the wicked in all ways, and that the Lamanites are more faithful to the good that they have from their fathers, than the Nephites.

Here are two times when the Lamanite king swore an oath and kept it:
Mosiah 19:25 And it came to pass that the king of the Lamanites made an oath unto them, that his people should not slay them.
Mosiah 20:24 And it came to pass that the king was pacified towards his people; and he said unto them: Let us go forth to meet my people, without arms; and I swear unto you with an oath that my people shall not slay thy people.
Mosiah 20:25 And it came to pass that they followed the king, and went forth without arms to meet the Lamanites. And it came to pass that they did meet the Lamanites; and the king of the Lamanites did bow himself down before them, and did plead in behalf of the people of Limhi.
Mosiah 20:26 And when the Lamanites saw the people of Limhi, that they were without arms, they had compassion on them and were pacified towards them, and returned with their king in peace to their own land.

We also never hear of Lamanites breaking their oaths to never war again.

And, as all who know the story know, Ammon, Aaron, and the other missionaries had great success, and the Lamanites became different people:
Alma 23:18 And *they began to be a very industrious people*; yea, and they were friendly with the Nephites; therefore, they did open a correspondence with them, and the curse of God did no more follow them.
Alma 24:18 And this they did, it being in their view a testimony to God, and also to men, that they *never would use weapons again for the shedding of man’s blood; and this they did, vouching and covenanting with God, that rather than shed the blood of their brethren they would give up their own lives; and rather than take away from a brother they would give unto him; and rather than spend their days in idleness they would labor abundantly with their hands*.
Alma 24:19 And thus we see that, *when these Lamanites were brought to believe and to know the truth, they were firm, and would suffer even unto death rather than commit sin*…
Surely this is not Lamanite bias!

Here’s a great Lamanite conversion:
Helaman 5:19 Therefore they did speak unto the great astonishment of the Lamanites, to the convincing them, insomuch that there were eight thousand of the Lamanites who were in the land of Zarahemla and round about baptized unto repentance, and were convinced of the wickedness of the traditions of their fathers.

And another one:
Helaman 5:40 And it came to pass that the Lamanites said unto him: What shall we do, that this cloud of darkness may be removed from overshadowing us?
Helaman 5:41 And Aminadab said unto them: You must repent, and cry unto the voice, even until ye shall have faith in Christ, who was taught unto you by Alma, and Amulek, and Zeezrom; and when ye shall do this, the cloud of darkness shall be removed from overshadowing you.
Helaman 5:42 And it came to pass that they all did begin to cry unto the voice of him who had shaken the earth; yea, they did cry even until the cloud of darkness was dispersed.
Helaman 5:43 And it came to pass that when they cast their eyes about, and saw that the cloud of darkness was dispersed from overshadowing them, behold, they saw that they were encircled about, yea every soul, by a pillar of fire.
Helaman 5:44 And Nephi and Lehi were in the midst of them; yea, they were encircled about; yea, they were as if in the midst of a flaming fire, yet it did harm them not, neither did it take hold upon the walls of the prison; and they were filled with that joy which is unspeakable and full of glory.
Helaman 5:45 And behold, the Holy Spirit of God did come down from heaven, and did enter into their hearts, and they were filled as if with fire, and they could speak forth marvelous words.
Helaman 5:46 And it came to pass that there came a voice unto them, yea, a pleasant voice, as if it were a whisper, saying:
Helaman 5:47 Peace, peace be unto you, because of your faith in my Well Beloved, who was from the foundation of the world.
Helaman 5:48 And now, when they heard this they cast up their eyes as if to behold from whence the voice came; and behold, they saw the heavens open; and angels came down out of heaven and ministered unto them.
Helaman 5:49 And there were about three hundred souls who saw and heard these things; and they were bidden to go forth and marvel not, neither should they doubt.
Helaman 5:50 And it came to pass that they did go forth, and did minister unto the people, declaring throughout all the regions round about all the things which they had heard and seen, insomuch that the more part of the Lamanites were convinced of them, because of the greatness of the evidences which they had received.
Helaman 5:51 And as many as were convinced did lay down their weapons of war, and also their hatred and the tradition of their fathers.
Helaman 5:52 And it came to pass that they did yield up unto the Nephites the lands of their possession.
Helaman 6:1 And it came to pass that when the sixty and second year of the reign of the judges had ended, all these things had happened and the Lamanites had become, the more part of them, a righteous people, insomuch that their righteousness did exceed that of the Nephites, because of their firmness and their steadiness in the faith.

That experience is alluded to by Jesus himself:
3 Nephi 9:20 And ye shall offer for a sacrifice unto me a broken heart and a contrite spirit. And whoso cometh unto me with a broken heart and a contrite spirit, him will I baptize with fire and with the Holy Ghost, even as the Lamanites, because of their faith in me at the time of their conversion, were baptized with fire and with the Holy Ghost, and they knew it not.

More about righteous Lamanites and wicked Nephites:
Helaman 6:35 And thus we see that the Spirit of the Lord began to withdraw from the Nephites, because of the wickedness and the hardness of their hearts.
Helaman 6:36 And thus we see that the Lord began to pour out his Spirit upon the Lamanites, because of their easiness and willingness to believe in his words.
Helaman 6:37 And it came to pass that the Lamanites did hunt the band of robbers of Gadianton; and they did preach the word of God among the more wicked part of them, insomuch that this band of robbers was utterly destroyed from among the Lamanites.
Helaman 6:38 And it came to pass on the other hand, that the Nephites did build them up and support them, beginning at the more wicked part of them, until they had overspread all the land of the Nephites, and had seduced the more part of the righteous until they had come down to believe in their works and partake of their spoils, and to join with them in their secret murders and combinations.

Nephi says:
Helaman 7:24 For behold, they are more righteous than you, for they have not sinned against that great knowledge which ye have received; therefore the Lord will be merciful unto them; yea, he will lengthen out their days and increase their seed, even when thou shalt be utterly destroyed except thou shalt repent.

What about here?:
Helaman 13:1 AND now it came to pass in the eighty and sixth year, the Nephites did still remain in wickedness, yea, in great wickedness, while the Lamanites did observe strictly to keep the commandments of God, according to the law of Moses.
Helaman 13:2 And it came to pass that in this year there was one Samuel, a Lamanite, came into the land of Zarahemla, and began to preach unto the people. And it came to pass that he did preach, many days, repentance unto the people, and they did cast him out, and he was about to return to his own land.

Samuel the Lamanite lauds the Lamanites:
Helaman 15:3 Yea, wo unto this people who are called the people of Nephi except they shall repent, when they shall see all these signs and wonders which shall be showed unto them; for behold, they have been a chosen people of the Lord; yea, the people of Nephi hath he loved, and also hath he chastened them; yea, in the days of their iniquities hath he chastened them because he loveth them.
Helaman 15:4 But behold my brethren, the Lamanites hath he hated because their deeds have been evil continually, and this because of the iniquity of the tradition of their fathers. But behold, salvation hath come unto them through the preaching of the Nephites; and for this intent hath the Lord prolonged their days.
Helaman 15:5 And I would that ye should behold that the more part of them are in the path of their duty, and they do walk circumspectly before God, and they do observe to keep his commandments and his statutes and his judgments according to the law of Moses.
Helaman 15:6 Yea, I say unto you, that the more part of them are doing this, and they are striving with unwearied diligence that they may bring the remainder of their brethren to the knowledge of the truth; therefore there are many who do add to their numbers daily.
Helaman 15:7 And behold, ye do know of yourselves, for ye have witnessed it, that as many of them as are brought to the knowledge of the truth, and to know of the wicked and abominable traditions of their fathers, and are led to believe the holy scriptures, yea, the prophecies of the holy prophets, which are written, which leadeth them to faith on the Lord, and unto repentance, which faith and repentance bringeth a change of heart unto them–
Helaman 15:8 Therefore, as many as have come to this, ye know of yourselves are firm and steadfast in the faith, and in the thing wherewith they have been made free.
Helaman 15:9 And ye know also that they have buried their weapons of war, and they fear to take them up lest by any means they should sin; yea, ye can see that they fear to sin–for behold they will suffer themselves that they be trodden down and slain by their enemies, and will not lift their swords against them, and this because of their faith in Christ.
Helaman 15:10 And now, because of their steadfastness when they do believe in that thing which they do believe, for because of their firmness when they are once enlightened, behold, the Lord shall bless them and prolong their days, notwithstanding their iniquity–
Helaman 15:11 Yea, even if they should dwindle in unbelief the Lord shall prolong their days, until the time shall come which hath been spoken of by our fathers, and also by the prophet Zenos, and many other prophets, concerning the restoration of our brethren, the Lamanites, again to the knowledge of the truth–
Helaman 15:12 Yea, I say unto you, that in the latter times the promises of the Lord have been extended to our brethren, the Lamanites; and notwithstanding the many afflictions which they shall have, and notwithstanding they shall be driven to and fro upon the face of the earth, and be hunted, and shall be smitten and scattered abroad, having no place for refuge, the Lord shall be merciful unto them.
Helaman 15:13 And this is according to the prophecy, that they shall again be brought to the true knowledge, which is the knowledge of their Redeemer, and their great and true shepherd, and be numbered among his sheep.
Helaman 15:14 Therefore I say unto you, it shall be better for them than for you except ye repent.
Helaman 15:15 For behold, had the mighty works been shown unto them which have been shown unto you, yea, unto them who have dwindled in unbelief because of the traditions of their fathers, ye can see of yourselves that they never would again have dwindled in unbelief.
Helaman 15:16 Therefore, saith the Lord: I will not utterly destroy them, but I will cause that in the day of my wisdom they shall return again unto me, saith the Lord.
Helaman 15:17 And now behold, saith the Lord, concerning the people of the Nephites: If they will not repent, and observe to do my will, I will utterly destroy them, saith the Lord, because of their unbelief notwithstanding the many mighty works which I have done among them; and as surely as the Lord liveth shall these things be, saith the Lord.

And there’s more, but I think that should be enough to get the correct idea.

Are there any places in the Book of Mormon where the Nephites are described in a negative light?
In addition to the parts included in the section above, there is more.
Here, the Nephites are described as very wicked, and the Lord tells them of impending death and other problems with the Lamanites if they don’t repent:
Mosiah 11:6 Yea, and thus they were supported in their laziness, and in their idolatry, and in their whoredoms, by the taxes which king Noah had put upon his people; thus did the people labor exceedingly to support iniquity.
Mosiah 11:7 Yea, and they also became idolatrous, because they were deceived by the vain and flattering words of the king and priests; for they did speak flattering things unto them.
Mosiah 11:8 And it came to pass that king Noah built many elegant and spacious buildings; and he ornamented them with fine work of wood, and of all manner of precious things, of gold, and of silver, and of iron, and of brass, and of ziff, and of copper;
Mosiah 11:9 And he also built him a spacious palace, and a throne in the midst thereof, all of which was of fine wood and was ornamented with gold and silver and with precious things.
Mosiah 11:13 And it came to pass that he caused many buildings to be built in the land Shilom; and he caused a great tower to be built on the hill north of the land Shilom, which had been a resort for the children of Nephi at the time they fled out of the land; and thus he did do with the riches which he obtained by the taxation of his people.
Mosiah 11:19 And now, because of this great victory they were lifted up in the pride of their hearts; they did boast in their own strength, saying that their fifty could stand against thousands of the Lamanites; and thus they did boast, and did delight in blood, and the shedding of the blood of their brethren, and this because of the wickedness of their king and priests.
So, does that mean that Mormon also has a Nephite bias? Or just a “king Noah” bias? Or is he, once more, presenting “things as they were”?

And there is more, much more.

Bookmark and Share

2008, December 16

Book of Mormon | Ownership of the People–King Noah versus the Lord by grego

*Book of Mormon | Ownership of the People–King Noah versus the Lord*
by grego

There is a power struggle between king Noah and the Lord going on over ownership of the people, with a second tier of the wicked priests and Abinadi. Notice both sides’: claims to the people, the sins and the anger and the judgments of the owner, and how the judgments will be settled, and by whom.

Mosiah 11:20 And it came to pass that there was a man among them whose name was Abinadi; and he went forth among them, and began to prophesy, saying: Behold, *thus saith the Lord, and thus hath he commanded me, saying, Go forth, and say unto this people, thus saith the Lord–Wo be unto THIS people*, for I have seen their abominations, and their wickedness, and their whoredoms; and except they repent *I will visit them in mine anger*.

Mosiah 11:21 And except they repent and turn to the Lord their God, behold, *I will deliver them into the hands of their enemies*; yea, and they shall be brought into bondage; and they shall be afflicted by the hand of their enemies.

Mosiah 11:22 And it shall come to pass that *they shall know that I am the Lord their God*, and am a jealous God, visiting the iniquities of *MY people*.

Mosiah 11:23 And it shall come to pass that *except THIS people repent* and turn unto the Lord their God, they shall be brought into bondage; and none shall deliver them, except it be the Lord the Almighty God.

Mosiah 11:24 Yea, and it shall come to pass that when *they shall cry unto me* I will be slow to hear their cries; yea, and *I will suffer them that they be smitten by their enemies*.

Mosiah 11:25 And except they repent in sackcloth and ashes, and cry mightily to the Lord their God, I will not hear their prayers, neither will I deliver them out of their afflictions; and thus saith the Lord, and thus hath he commanded me.

Mosiah 11:26 Now it came to pass that when Abinadi had spoken these words unto them *they were wroth with him*, and *sought to take away his life*; but *the Lord delivered him out of their hands*.

Mosiah 11:27 Now when king Noah had heard of the words which Abinadi had spoken unto the people, *he was also wroth*; and he said: Who is Abinadi, that I and my people should be judged of him, or *who is the Lord, that shall bring upon *MY people* such great affliction*?

Mosiah 11:28 I command you to bring Abinadi hither, that *I may slay him*, for he has said these things that he might stir up *MY people* to anger one with another, and to raise contentions among *MY people*; therefore *I will slay him*.

Mosiah 11:29 Now the eyes of the people were blinded; therefore they hardened their hearts against the words of Abinadi, and they sought from that time forward to take him. And king Noah hardened his heart against the word of the Lord, and he did not repent of his evil doings.

Mosiah 12:1 And it came to pass that after the space of two years that Abinadi came among them in disguise, that they knew him not, and began to prophesy among them, saying: Thus has the Lord commanded me, saying–Abinadi, go and prophesy unto *THIS MY people*, for they have hardened their hearts against my words; they have repented not of their evil doings; therefore, *I will visit them in my anger, yea, in my fierce anger will I visit them in their iniquities and abominations*.

Mosiah 12:2 Yea, wo be unto this generation! And the Lord said unto me: Stretch forth thy hand and prophesy, saying: Thus saith the Lord, it shall come to pass that *THIS generation*, because of their iniquities, shall be *brought into bondage, and shall be smitten on the cheek; yea, and shall be driven by men, and shall be slain; and the vultures of the air, and the dogs, yea, and the wild beasts, shall devour their flesh*.

Mosiah 12:3 And it shall come to pass that *the life of king Noah shall be valued even as a garment in a hot furnace*; for *he shall know that I am the Lord*.

Mosiah 12:4 And it shall come to pass that *I will smite this my people with sore afflictions, yea, with famine and with pestilence; and I will cause that they shall howl all the day long*.

Mosiah 12:5 Yea, and *I* will cause that they shall have burdens lashed upon their backs; and they shall be driven before like a dumb ass.

Mosiah 12:6 And it shall come to pass that *I* will send forth hail among them, and it shall smite them; and they shall also be smitten with the east wind; and insects shall pester their land also, and devour their grain.

Mosiah 12:7 And they shall be smitten with a great pestilence–and all this will *I* do because of their iniquities and abominations.

Mosiah 12:8 And it shall come to pass that except they repent *I* will utterly destroy them from off the face of the earth; yea, even *this will I do* that I may discover the abominations of this people to other nations. And many things did Abinadi prophesy against *THIS people*.

Mosiah 12:9 And it came to pass that *they were angry with him*; and they took him and carried him bound before the king, and said unto the king: Behold, we have brought a man before thee who has prophesied evil concerning *THY people*, and saith that *God will destroy them*.

Mosiah 12:10 *And he also prophesieth evil concerning thy life, and saith that thy life shall be as a garment in a furnace of fire.

Mosiah 12:11 And again, he saith that thou shalt be as a stalk, even as a dry stalk of the field, which is run over by the beasts and trodden under foot.

Mosiah 12:12 And again, he saith thou shalt be as the blossoms of a thistle, which, when it is fully ripe, if the wind bloweth, it is driven forth upon the face of the land. And *he pretendeth the Lord hath spoken it. And he saith all this shall come upon thee except thou repent, and this because of thine iniquities*.

Mosiah 12:13 And now, *O king, what great evil hast thou done*, or what great sins have *THY people* committed, that *we should be condemned of God* or judged of this man?

And king Noah and his wicked priests condemn and burn Abinadi, and Abinadi curses the seed of the wicked priests; the prophecies regarding king Noah, the people, and the descendants are fulfilled; and the people become the Lord’s people after many cries and much humility.

Bookmark and Share

2008, December 15

Book of Mormon: Real or Imaginary–Brant Gardner and David Bokovoy’s Claim of Mormon’s Bias against the Lamanites? Part 2 by grego

Book of Mormon: Real or Imaginary–Brant Gardner and David Bokovoy’s Claim of Mormon’s Bias against the Lamanites? Part 2
by grego

First, why would Mormon have a bias, especially towards the early Lamanites?
He lived at a time when the Lamanites are not the original Lamanites, except that they follow the same principles of rejecting the truth and teaching their children to hate the truth and those that accept it. In fact, at the time of his writing, the original Lamanites don’t seem to have been in existence for four hundred years or so; and for some years before that, the Lamanites were more or less more righteous than the Nephites.

If anyone had a bias, it was likely the early writers. But is any bias evident in *their* writings?

Where are the Lamanites described negatively in the Book of Mormon?
Following are negative descriptions of the Lamanites. Descriptions are both physical and based on action, and from the Nephite perspective. Note that descriptions *cannot* be correctly labeled “biased” if they are true! Note that these descriptions also come about because of curses that the people brought on themselves (and though the children bore the curse and mark in life, they won’t in eternity). Note also that there is not a causal relationship of “mark –} curse”; it’s the other way around.

Here are many of the examples of negative descriptions:
2 Nephi 5:21 And he had caused the cursing to come upon them, yea, even a sore cursing, because of their iniquity. For behold, they had hardened their hearts against him, that they had become like unto a flint; wherefore, as they were white, and exceedingly fair and delightsome, that they might not be enticing unto my people the Lord God did cause a skin of blackness to come upon them.
2 Nephi 5:22 And thus saith the Lord God: I will cause that they shall be loathsome unto thy people, save they shall repent of their iniquities.
2 Nephi 5:23 And cursed shall be the seed of him that mixeth with their seed; for they shall be cursed even with the same cursing. And the Lord spake it, and it was done.
2 Nephi 5:24 And because of their cursing (grego: note the wording and the difference: “cursing”, not “mark”) which was upon them they did become an idle people, full of mischief and subtlety, and did seek in the wilderness for beasts of prey.

Alma 3:5 Now the heads of the Lamanites were shorn; and they were naked, save it were skin which was girded about their loins, and also their armor, which was girded about them, and their bows, and their arrows, and their stones, and their slings, and so forth.
Alma 3:6 And the skins of the Lamanites were dark, according to the mark which was set upon their fathers, which was a curse upon them because of their transgression and their rebellion against their brethren, who consisted of Nephi, Jacob, and Joseph, and Sam, who were just and holy men.
Alma 3:7 And their brethren sought to destroy them, therefore they were cursed; and the Lord God set a mark upon them, yea, upon Laman and Lemuel, and also the sons of Ishmael, and Ishmaelitish women.
Alma 3:8 And this was done that their seed might be distinguished from the seed of their brethren, that thereby the Lord God might preserve his people, that they might not mix and believe in incorrect traditions which would prove their destruction.
Alma 3:9 And it came to pass that whosoever did mingle his seed with that of the Lamanites did bring the same curse upon his seed.
Alma 3:10 Therefore, whosoever suffered himself to be led away by the Lamanites was called under that head, and there was a mark set upon him.
Alma 3:19 Now I would that ye should see that they brought upon themselves the curse; and even so doth every man that is cursed bring upon himself his own condemnation.

Jacob 7:24 And it came to pass that many means were devised to reclaim and restore the Lamanites to the knowledge of the truth; but it all was vain, for *they delighted in wars and bloodshed*, and they *had an eternal hatred against us*, their brethren. And they *sought by the power of their arms to destroy us continually*.

Enos 1:11 And after I, Enos, had heard these words, my faith began to be unshaken in the Lord; and *I prayed unto him with many long strugglings for my brethren, the Lamanites*.
Enos 1:13 And now behold, this was the desire which I desired of him–that if it should so be, that my people, the Nephites, should fall into transgression, and by any means be destroyed, and the Lamanites should not be destroyed, that the Lord God would preserve a record of my people, the Nephites; even if it so be by the power of his holy arm, that *it might be brought forth at some future day unto the Lamanites, that, perhaps*, they might be brought unto salvation–
Enos 1:14 For *at the present our strugglings were vain in restoring them to the true faith*. And *they swore in their wrath that, if it were possible, they would destroy our records and us, and also all the traditions of our fathers*.
Enos 1:18 And the Lord said unto me: *Thy fathers have also required of me this thing*; and it shall be done unto them according to their faith; for their faith was like unto thine.
Enos 1:20 And I bear record that the people of Nephi did seek diligently to restore the Lamanites unto the true faith in God. But our labors were vain; *their hatred was fixed, and they were led by their evil nature that they became wild, and ferocious, and a blood-thirsty people, full of idolatry and filthiness; feeding upon beasts of prey; dwelling in tents, and wandering about in the wilderness with a short skin girdle about their loins and their heads shaven; and their skill was in the bow, and in the cimeter, and the ax. And many of them did eat nothing save it was raw meat; and they were continually seeking to destroy us*.

Jarom 1:6 And they were scattered upon much of the face of the land, and the Lamanites also. And they were exceedingly more numerous than were they of the Nephites; and they loved murder and would drink the blood of beasts.

Ok, even in our times, if someone can show that running around naked in society is a mark of class, let me know…
The Nephites tried to teach the Lamanites, but the Lamanites tried to kill them. Many less-than-desirable habits are listed; is there any reason why we must believe this is opinion instead of description? I mean, most people have no problems with calling Hitler all kinds of derogatory things, even though they have no first-hand information or experience whatsoever; yet these writers did have first-hand information–they had been among the Lamanites to preach to them, they fought with them, they likley observed them and had run-ins with them, etc.

Mosiah 24:7 And thus the Lamanites began to increase in riches, and began to trade one with another and wax great, and began to be a cunning and a wise people, as to the wisdom of the world, yea, *a very cunning people, delighting in all manner of wickedness and plunder, except it were among their own brethren*.

Mosiah 25:11 And again, when they thought upon the Lamanites, who were their brethren, of their sinful and polluted state, they were filled with pain and anguish for the welfare of their souls.

Here is one of many examples of how the Nephites were usually better prepared for war than the Lamanites:
Alma 43:20 Now the army of Zerahemnah was not prepared with any such thing; they had only their swords and their cimeters, their bows and their arrows, their stones and their slings; and they were naked, save it were a skin which was girded about their loins; yea, all were naked, save it were the Zoramites and the Amalekites;

Some apologists have claimed that the incidents of getting drunk and having bad things happen attest to a Lamanite bias.
The Lamanites get drunk here:
Mosiah 22:6 Behold the back pass, through the back wall, on the back side of the city. The Lamanites, or the guards of the Lamanites, by night are drunken; therefore let us send a proclamation among all this people that they gather together their flocks and herds, that they may drive them into the wilderness by night.
Mosiah 22:10 And king Limhi caused that his people should gather their flocks together; and he sent the tribute of wine to the Lamanites; and he also sent more wine, as a present unto them; and they did drink freely of the wine which king Limhi did send unto them.

and here:
Alma 55:13 And it came to pass that they did take of the wine freely; and it was pleasant to their taste, therefore they took of it more freely; and it was strong, having been prepared in its strength.
Alma 55:14 And it came to pass they did drink and were merry, and by and by they were all drunken.

(and possibly this one:
Alma 47:18 And it came to pass that Amalickiah caused that one of his servants should administer poison by degrees to Lehonti, that he died).

But then, on the other hand, the Nephites don’t fall for the tricks:
Alma 55:30 And many times did they attempt to administer of their wine to the Nephites, that they might destroy them with poison or with drunkenness.

But there’s a reason why, and it’s clearly given to us:
Alma 55:31 But behold, the Nephites were not slow to remember the Lord their God in this their time of affliction. They could not be taken in their snares; yea, they would not partake of their wine, save they had first given to some of the Lamanite prisoners.
Alma 55:32 And they were thus cautious that no poison should be administered among them; for if their wine would poison a Lamanite it would also poison a Nephite; and thus they did try all their liquors.
Not only that, the Nephites did it first–were they going to fall for their own trick? And the two Lamanites stories have a long time between them, and are in different circumstances.

Is that so hard to understand? Must there be a bias there?

Well, what about getting lost? Of course Mormon wrote that to show how stupid the Lamanites were:
Mosiah 22:16 And after they had pursued them two days, they could no longer follow their tracks; therefore they were lost in the wilderness.

So what is one to make about this?:
Mosiah 8:8 And they [Nephites] were lost in the wilderness for the space of many days, yet they were diligent, and found not the land of Zarahemla but returned to this land, having traveled in a land among many waters, having discovered a land which was covered with bones of men, and of beasts, and was also covered with ruins of buildings of every kind, having discovered a land which had been peopled with a people who were as numerous as the hosts of Israel.

Hey, Mormon even writes about this *twice*:
Mosiah 21:25 Now king Limhi had sent, previous to the coming of Ammon, a small number of men to search for the land of Zarahemla; but they could not find it, and they were lost in the wilderness.

I guess because Mormon and the original writers cite no anthropological study in the Book of Mormon when they give these descriptions and write these happenings, Gardner, Bokovoy, and others assume that it had to be opinion and what the Nephites imagined, but didn’t really know. Where is the basis for this assumption? Well, “because older historians were like that, unlike now” type of stuff. Faulty. Once more, assumptions and speculations–“since most swans in that pond are white, of course Mormon was a white swan, too”. Wait… modern historians write without bias? History books and newspapers are written without bias? No, no.

Are there any clear first-hand accounts in the Book of Mormon itself about dealings with the Lamanites, where the Lamanites are decribed in a negative light?
Yes, here are some (second-hand summary of a grandson, then first-hand accounts of Limhi):
Mosiah 7:21 And ye all are witnesses this day, that Zeniff, who was made king over this people, he being over-zealous to inherit the land of his fathers, therefore being deceived by the cunning and craftiness of king Laman, who having entered into a treaty with king Zeniff, and having yielded up into his hands the possessions of a part of the land, or even the city of Lehi-Nephi, and the city of Shilom; and the land round about–
Mosiah 7:22 And all this he did, for the sole purpose of bringing this people into subjection or into bondage. And behold, we at this time do pay tribute to the king of the Lamanites, to the amount of one half of our corn, and our barley, and even all our grain of every kind, and one half of the increase of our flocks and our herds; and even one half of all we have or possess the king of the Lamanites doth exact of us, or our lives.
Mosiah 9:1 I, Zeniff, having been taught in all the language of the Nephites, and having had a knowledge of the land of Nephi, or of the land of our fathers’ first inheritance, and having been sent as a spy among the Lamanites that I might spy out their forces, that our army might come upon them and destroy them–but when I saw that which was good among them I was desirous that they should not be destroyed.
Mosiah 9:4 Nevertheless, after many days’ wandering in the wilderness we pitched our tents in the place where our brethren were slain, which was near to the land of our fathers.
Mosiah 9:6 And I went in unto the king, and he covenanted with me that I might possess the land of Lehi-Nephi, and the land of Shilom.
Mosiah 9:7 And he also commanded that his people should depart out of the land, and I and my people went into the land that we might possess it.
Mosiah 9:8 And we began to build buildings, and to repair the walls of the city, yea, even the walls of the city of Lehi-Nephi, and the city of Shilom.
Mosiah 9:10 Now it was the cunning and the craftiness of king Laman, to bring my people into bondage, that he yielded up the land that we might possess it.
Mosiah 9:12 Now they were a lazy and an idolatrous people; therefore they were desirous to bring us into bondage, that they might glut themselves with the labors of our hands; yea, that they might feast themselves upon the flocks of our fields.
Mosiah 10:12 They were a wild, and ferocious, and a blood-thirsty people, believing in the tradition of their fathers, which is this–Believing that they were driven out of the land of Jerusalem because of the iniquities of their fathers, and that they were wronged in the wilderness by their brethren, and they were also wronged while crossing the sea;
Mosiah 10:17 And thus they have taught their children that they should hate them, and that they should murder them, and that they should rob and plunder them, and do all they could to destroy them; therefore they have an eternal hatred towards the children of Nephi.
Mosiah 10:18 For this very cause has king Laman, by his cunning, and lying craftiness, and his fair promises, deceived me, that I have brought this my people up into this land, that they may destroy them; yea, and we have suffered these many years in the land.

Note that king Limhi wanted to be friends with the Lamanites; he fought to the death against those who wanted to kill them, at first, and did what he could to keep his people from attacking the Lamanites.

Did the Lamanites always keep their word, or are there instances where they are sometimes deceitful for gain? Here’s the experience Alma the elder and his people had (can we trust Alma the elder?):
Mosiah 23:36 And it came to pass that the Lamanites promised unto Alma and his brethren, that if they would show them the way which led to the land of Nephi that they would grant unto them their lives and their liberty.
Mosiah 23:37 But after Alma had shown them the way that led to the land of Nephi the Lamanites would not keep their promise; but they set guards round about the land of Helam, over Alma and his brethren.

The Strongest Witnesses
Nothing, however, beats the strongest witnesses: the Lamanites themselves, missionaries who had spent 14 years among them, and the Lord. Here’s a look:
Alma 17:4 And *they had been teaching the word of God for the space of fourteen years among the Lamanites*…
Alma 17:13 …they separated themselves and departed one from another, trusting in the Lord that they should meet again at the close of their harvest; for they supposed that great was the work which they had undertaken.
Alma 17:14 And assuredly it was great, for they had undertaken to preach the word of God to *a wild and a hardened and a ferocious people; a people who delighted in murdering the Nephites, and robbing and plundering them; and their hearts were set upon riches, or upon gold and silver, and precious stones; yet they sought to obtain these things by murdering and plundering, that they might not labor for them with their own hands*.
Alma 17:15 *Thus they were a very indolent people, many of whom did worship idols, and the curse of God had fallen upon them because of the traditions of their fathers*; notwithstanding the promises of the Lord were extended unto them on the conditions of repentance.

The Lamanites admit to their situation as described by the Nephites:
Alma 17:28 Now the servants of the king began to murmur, saying: Now *the king will slay us, as he has our brethren* because their flocks were scattered *by the wickedness of these men*…
Alma 17:35 “*[the Lamanites] delighted in the destruction of their brethren*; and for this cause they stood to scatter the flocks of the king.
Alma 18:2 “[the Lamanite king said:] Behold, is not this the Great Spirit who doth *send such great punishments upon this people, because of their murders*?”

Wow. This is huge right there. Ammon remembered one command and performed it, and it astonished the Lamanite king so much he thought Ammon was God:
Alma 18:8 And it came to pass that king Lamoni inquired of his servants, saying: *Where is this man that has such great power*?
Alma 18:9 And they said unto him: *Behold, he is feeding thy horses. Now the king had commanded his servants, previous to the time of the watering of their flocks, that they should prepare his horses and chariots*, and conduct him forth to the land of Nephi; for there had been a great feast appointed at the land of Nephi, by the father of Lamoni, who was king over all the land.
Alma 18:10 Now *when king Lamoni heard that Ammon was preparing his horses and his chariots he was more astonished, because of the faithfulness of Ammon, saying: Surely there has not been any servant among all my servants that has been so faithful as this man; for even he doth remember all my commandments to execute them*.
Alma 18:11 Now I surely know that this is the Great Spirit, and I would desire him that he come in unto me, but I durst not.

Alma 23:3 “that his (the Lamanite king’s) people might be convinced concerning *the wicked traditions of their fathers, and that they might be convinced that they were all brethren, and that they ought not to murder, nor to plunder, nor to steal, nor to commit adultery, nor to commit any manner of wickedness*.

More from the big Lamanite king (Lamoni’s father):
Alma 24:7 Now, these are the words which [the Lamanite king] said unto the people concerning the matter: I thank my God, my beloved people, that *our great God has in goodness sent these our brethren, the Nephites, unto us to preach unto us, and to convince us of the traditions of our wicked fathers*.
Alma 24:9 And behold, I also thank my God, that by opening this correspondence (with the Nephites) *we have been convinced of our sins, and of the many murders which we have committed*.
Alma 24:10 And I also thank my God, yea, my great God, … that he hath forgiven us of those *our many sins and murders which we have committed*…
Alma 24:11 And now behold, my brethren, since it has been all that we could do, (*as we were the most lost of all mankind*) to repent of all our sins and the many murders which we have committed…

What does Samuel *the Lamanite* say?:
Helaman 15:4 But behold *my brethren, the Lamanites hath he hated because their deeds have been evil continually, and this because of the iniquity of the tradition of their fathers*.

(It is very possible that when these Lamanites left to the Nephites, they took their records/ history with them. It is also probable that there was more on the plates that Mormon did not include.)

So, it’s very clear that chances were much better that Mormon and the other Book of Mormon writers were very accurate in their descriptions of the Lamanites, than that they were operating under false assumptions.

Bookmark and Share

2008, December 13

Book of Mormon | Real or Imaginary–Brant Gardner and David Bokovoy’s Claim of Mormon’s Bias against the Lamanites? Part 1 by grego

Book of Mormon | Real or Imaginary–Brant Gardner and David Bokovoy’s Claim of Mormon’s Bias against the Lamanites? Part 1
by grego

Some Mormon/ LDS apologists, including Brant Gardner and David Bokovoy, claim that Mormon had a clear nonfactual bias against the Lamanites, or that Mormon used untrue or stereotypical caricatures of them.

I have found that this is not only necessary to discuss in defense of truth and Mormon, but for a few other reasons, too. This is the chink in the armor that becomes gaping holes.

First, it can be THE excuse for “exposing” Mormon’s weakness and fallibility as a writer/ historian, in an excuse to expand the possibilities of other interpretations than those allowed by the text–to “open it up”, so to say, to make more leeway in wriggling and supporting a personal (and rarely scripturally-supported) point of view. This is also very convenient when one desires to match up the Book of Mormon with what is known of Central American history, when it should be matching up history and anthropology to the Book of Mormon. Unfortunately, when one plays this game of forcing the Book of Mormon to fit what is currently known, it’s a game based on a slippery slope of science…

Another big reason is that, since we “know” that Mormon had a bias, we understand he also had a bias about Captain Moroni, that Mormon gets way too carried away when writing about him and wars, etc. I imagine, maybe this is because some in the LDS Church are afraid to accept the clear teachings about freedom and such.

There is a third reason I’ve found this argument particularly disdainful: I’ve heard it as an excuse to reject all the “fringe” (what one wants to call fringe) teachings of Ezra Taft Benson (even though they were covered hundreds of talks and decades of time). Here’s how the argument goes: See, Ezra Taft Benson got carried away in his writings and teachings about government, freedom, the Book of Mormon and secret combinations, etc., which is not really spiritual stuff, because of a personal fetish–just following the precedent of Mormon getting carried away in his writings and teachings about war and Captain Moroni, which is not really spiritual stuff, because of a personal fetish; and we know he did that, because of how he treated the Lamanites in the Book of Mormon with a negative, personal bias. (Note, folks, the similarity between the topics and manners in which Ezra Taft Benson and Captain Moroni spoke…)

Yet somehow, in all the Book of Mormon, I personally can’t find this so-called Lamanite bias *anywhere*. So I asked for references in the text, and in fact, I’ve asked Brant Gardner and David Bokovoy and others for instances of clear/ concrete cases unsupported in any logical, normal way examples in the text, and… they never showed it/ were able to show it. It seems that the imagination is strong when convenient, and dull when not wanted…

And, claims of Mormon’s Lamanite bias or use of strong exaggeration in his writing in the Book of Mormon based on what I have been shown are clearly unsupported by the text. (Brant Gardner claimed to have dug deep into the story of Ammon and the king’s flock, and said that Mormon was completely wrong on a point or two; but were one to continue digging even deeper, it would be seen that Brant Gardner’s claim is wrong, as his digging was also incomplete and not completely correct.)

The main point of this Lamanite bias claim is this:
Mormon portrays the Lamanites in a very negative light–such as being wicked, savage, living in tents, eating raw meat and drinking blood, etc. Then, it’s often said that this is done in contrast to the way the Nephites are portrayed–shown as righteous, high-classed, highly developed people. This, in the face of other parts of the text that show developed Lamanite society, cities with buildings, governments, etc.–in contrast to the Lamanite stereotype; obviously showing Mormon was biased.

Let’s see if *any* of this is true. (I will not treat “Nephites=good, Lamanites=bad” topic deeply here.)

Bookmark and Share

2008, December 10

Book of Mormon | Questions I Can’t Answer Well

Book of Mormon | Questions I Can’t Answer Well
by grego

As seems typical in recent “Mormon apologetics”, the anti-LDS questions are usually much easier to answer than the questions the LDS ask and ponder themselves. (Let’s see if the anti-LDS can have a little respect, or let’s see if these questions start showing up on anti-LDS websites with clamors for answers and mouth-foaming.) I’ll keep adding to this list any others I can think of in my Book of Mormon study. If anyone has a possible answer or speculation (good, though), please add!

1. Why didn’t Zeezrom and the others kicked out with him tell the Nephites/ Nephite chief judge about the situation in Ammonihah (getting kicked out, Alma and Amulek, problems with religion and politics, etc.) and get some help?
grego’s answer: I have no clue. Maybe something about apostate cities? Maybe there was more, but Mormon didn’t include it.

2. Why didn’t Alma and Amulek tell the Nephites/ Nephite chief judge about the situation in Ammonihah (abuse of position, illegality of it all, problems with religion and politics, etc.)?
grego’s answer: The guilty were all already dead. Still, I don’t know why it just seems to stop there. Maybe there was more, but Mormon didn’t include it.

2008, December 8

Demonic Thing on “Demonic Names in the Book of Mormon” Website

Demonic Thing on “Demonic Names in the Book of Mormon” Website
by grego

I was on this site the other day:
on this page: “Demonic Names in the Book of Mormon”, and my eyes almost popped out when astrological constellations suddenly showed up and started moving on my screen!! What the he**?!! (Oh ok, I’ll just write it, “heck”.) Surely no God-fearing person would do that!!

Now, some of you might say, “That’s snow” but—as the website reminds us—I think “we need to take a firm stand against this rationalization. Truth is not relative.”

I have no idea what this demonic website is trying to do, but I felt suckered, and I had a very creepy feeling come over me if I concentrated on looking at the stars instead of reading the beautiful, honest, from-God text.

Then, it really hit me: as these stars moved on my screen, they formed the letters S-E-X. Now I know what this “good boy” Christian site is all about… And they couldn’t even be original in their sin, huh Disney (Lion King)?

So, a big WARNING to all!! Once more, we see sheep in wolves clothing…


P.S. Interesting how people can often see what they want to see, no matter how ridiculous, illogical, or unscholarly it is, eh?

%d bloggers like this: