Book of Mormon Notes– How deep can you dig?

2011, April 25

“Book of Mormon | 1 Nephi 2:6 Putting up a Tent after Three Days in the Wilderness/ Desert?” by grego

Book of Mormon | 1 Nephi 2:6 Putting up a Tent after Three Days in the Wilderness/ Desert?


Here is something I found that I haven’t really thought about before. Lehi travels three days, then puts up his tent:

1 Nephi 2:6 And it came to pass that when he had traveled three days in the wilderness, he pitched his tent in a valley by the side of a river of water.

This is so un-American; everyone knows you pitch your tent every night to sleep in, right?

Un-American, because it’s not an American in America. Is this typical desert travel for a Bedouin? ;)

2011, April 22

“The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints/ LDS/ Mormons: Are Jesus and Satan Brothers? But the Bible Doesn’t Say So! ” by grego

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints/ LDS/ Mormons: Are Jesus and Satan Brothers? But the Bible Doesn’t Say So!


Are Jesus and Satan brothers? I guess that depends on what you mean. Frankly, I don’t think 9/10 of the people asking this question or getting caught up on this question understand what they’re asking.

Before you were born, you already existed, as a spirit. We all have—everyone who has lived on this earth, or will. We have a common father of our spirits—Heavenly Father, or God (the Father).

Jesus was the firstborn of the spirit children. Everyone else that has to do with our earth was either His little spirit brother or sister. That includes not only you and your family, but Satan, all the wicked people, and all the demons.

We really are one big family.

Heavenly Father chose Jesus to be the Christ, but Lucifer (/Satan/ the devil) didn’t like that idea, and convinced others his idea was better, and God wasn’t good (or something like that).

Satan and those that followed him made some wrong choices, lost blessings and opportunities, and had to leave home. Being miserable, they decided to make others miserable, too, and thus continued their quest of disobeying and rebelling against God. They tempt humans to also disobey and rebel against God, but generally only have as much power over them as the humans allow.

They are still spirits, and will remain that way (at least a long time, possibly forever, who knows).

Everyone else who stayed loyal to God came/ will come to earth and gain a body.

Is that clearer? Now, any further questions about all that? I’ll try to answer. :)

But it’s not in the Bible, is it? (Ha, listening to different preachers, you’ll find out that they all have different ideas about what’s in the same Bible.) You can find references that allude to much of the above, but no, you will not find it all in the Bible.

Then, how can one know? Why, the same way all that was written in the Bible could be the word of God—it came from God to a person. It was revealed. And much of the above came to Joseph Smith or other prophets and apostles. A small part of it is shown in the Book of Mormon, and more is in the Doctrine and Covenants. Then more is in other teachings of the prophets and apostles.

2011, April 20

“Don’t Pray about the Devil’s Book of Mormon Or Else…!!” by grego

Don’t Pray about the Devil’s Book of Mormon Or Else…!!


I’ve heard a few comments like that, especially from Christian ministers. Don’t know why, eh.

Here’s an example:

He’s actually got a few interesting points. But for someone who has never done the experience… I wonder how much he can help others understand.

You know what’s interesting to me? I figured for sure this guy would get a burning in the bosom after having read and prayed about the Book of Mormon—I mean, really, if Satan can give you that feeling, why would Satan pass on this great opportunity to lead someone astray? ;) Whoops, he didn’t get a burning in the bosom. :( Well, perhaps he shared how he knew the Bible was true? Nope, no help there, either.

If you want to know if something’s true—the Bible, the Book of Mormon, or whatever—read it, study it, pray for help and guidance (which is what many Christians teach their congregation and converts from other religions about finding the truth about/ in the Bible—in fact, I was reading an example of this last night), etc.

How do you know the Bible is true/ from God? What heavenly manifestation have you received? If you haven’t gotten one, you need one. Read the Bible, study it, pray for help and guidance to understand it, and stay with it until you get an answer.

Then, use that answer as a standard for judging other things.

Chances are, you’re not going to get an answer the first time; but if you continue, it will likely come, for yes or no.

Answers to prayers are not always easy to get or understand, even for members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints/ Mormons (check the latest General Conference for talks by apostles on this very subject). But as you show your sincerity, your faith, your reading and studying and effort, etc., answers do come, and you learn more about answers with each experience.

If an answer truly comes from God by the power of the Holy Ghost, you will probably at least understand that it’s not from Satan.

What about this? “Again the Mormons, like many others, are wrong. Yes, the devil can duplicate peace. That is what he does in transcendental meditation (TM) and also in Catholicism after one receives the Eucharist. The devil uses these and other experiences to deceive. Please remember this: Any experience, testimony, dream, vision, prophecy, teaching, etc. that is supposed to be from God but doesn’t align itself with the Bible is not from God at all. The devil can and has used all of the above.”

OK, so… Seriously, where is all *that* in the Bible, that the devil can duplicate God’s peace?
I wonder, is this man really aligned with the Bible in *his* teaching??
How about this instead:
John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
27 Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid.

or this:
Philippians 4:7 And the peace of God, which passeth all understanding, shall keep your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus.

It is true that a man might believe he has the Holy Ghost when in fact he has the spirit of the devil; but this peace of God cannot be perfectly counterfeited, not even close; it is impossible for Satan/ the devil to give peace like the peace of God.

I disagree with him on this part, too:
“Burning In The Bosom
Sometimes the Mormons will also misuse Bible passages for confirmation about praying to see if you get that special burning in the bosom:
“And beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, he [Jesus] explained to them what was said in all the Scriptures concerning himself. As they approached the village to which they were going, Jesus acted as if he were going farther. But they urged him strongly, ‘Stay with us, for it is nearly evening; the day is almost over.’ So he went in to stay with them. When he was at the table with them, he took bread, gave thanks, broke it and began to give it to them. Then their eyes were opened and they recognized him, and he disappeared from their sight. They asked each other, ‘Were not our hearts burning within us while he talked with us on the road and opened the Scriptures to us?'” (Luke 24:27-32)
As one Mormon wrote regarding that passage: ‘Are you familiar with Luke 24:27-32? As Christ expounds the scriptures concerning himself, the Holy Spirit testifies of the truths He is speaking.’
Did you notice the differences between what the Mormon suggested about the BOM from that passage and what the disciples experienced, as cited in Luke 24:27-32? Please note the following: (1) They were already in the true faith before getting that burning; (2) The disciples didn’t pray about anything before getting that burning, not one thing, (3) What happened came after Jesus taught about himself from the Old Testament (Moses and all the Prophets .) Hence, there can justly be no connection between Lk. 24:27-32 and praying about a spurious book…”

Um, what differences do any of those points make, or what do they prove? I’m missing it. Jesus and a whole lot of others added to the scriptures (it’s called the New Testament, in case anyone has forgotten); somehow, though, this adding to scriptures is “biblical”, but the Book of Mormon has to be from the devil. Quite a few prophets added to what would become the Old Testament, too. Somehow, I’m missing the logic of all this “you can’t have more scripture” slant?

Here, let me show you what’s in the Bible:
1 John 4:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
*Try the spirits*. How? Pray and ask God for guidance and help to distinguish between His things and the things of man and the things of the devil. It might not be easy, or come all at once, but it will come.

NOW: Do you know what? If you’re not going to read it, you don’t care, you don’t want to believe it, you’re not willing to change, and you aren’t going to follow an answer to a prayer anyway, do you think God will grant you and your dog that “burning in the bosom” that the Book of Mormon is true? Millions of people have experienced the Holy Ghost, especially after praying about the Book of Mormon. Many don’t follow those promptings, which only makes it worse for them for now…

However, if you truly desire to know God, I encourage you to onward…

2011, April 16

“Member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints/ LDS/ Mormon: The Bible Proves May 21, 2011 Will not Be Judgment Day: Noah Hardly Knew, and Likely neither Will I” by grego

Member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints/ LDS/ Mormon: The Bible Proves May 21, 2011 Will not Be Judgment Day: Noah Hardly Knew, and Likely neither Will I


Noah didn’t know years before. He didn’t know months before. He didn’t know weeks before.

He was finally told *one week* before the Flood to get it all together:
Genesis 7:4 For yet seven days, and I will cause it to rain upon the earth forty days and forty nights; and every living substance that I have made will I destroy from off the face of the earth.

That would be necessary due to the incredible amount of animals and provisions–something not needed this time.

And in fact, that’s what he was doing for that week—getting his family and everything on the ark.

On the day of the beginning of the flood, they get in the ark, and the rain starts:
10 And it came to pass after seven days, that the waters of the flood were upon the earth.
11¶ In the six hundredth year of Noah’s life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month, the same day were all the fountains of the great deep broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened.
12 And the rain was upon the earth forty days and forty nights.
13 In the selfsame day entered Noah, and Shem, and Ham, and Japheth, the sons of Noah, and Noah’s wife, and the three wives of his sons with them, into the ark;

All the time before, he knew it was going to rain; he just didn’t know when. He knew it wouldn’t be before his ark et. al. were ready.

Others could have known the same, had they watched Noah. But they didn’t believe, so what good would watching have done?

It’s the same thing that happened in the Book of Mormon with the birth and death of Jesus Christ. Not even the prophets knew the exact day. In fact, after much pleading prayer in a life-and-death situation, Nephi was told the sign of Christ’s birth would be given a few hours later—the same day!

Signs had been given, and those that had faith watched for them, believed them, and were largely prepared for what happened. Those that didn’t have faith usually disregarded signs, though some watched for them only to not believe them and to think up excuses.

Seeing isn’t believing, and seeing isn’t not believing, either. It’s what you allow yourself to make of it.

Signs have been given about Jesus Christ’s Second Coming, too.

Will Christians survive the second coming? Some will. They won’t be caught up to be with Christ as he comes, but they will survive, and continue to live with Christ on the earth.

Will non-Christians survive the second coming? See above for the same answer.

I’ve found these scriptures that people claim show that you can know. I’ll comment on them just a little:
1 Thessalonians 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.
6 Therefore let us not asleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.

If members of the church knew “perfectly” that they *couldn’t* know, how does this support that one might know when Christ will come? How will we be able to closely ascertain when Crhist will come? By the signs that are given.
Can you know by signs when something will come? Not necessarily.
Can you know by signs when something won’t come? Yes!

Ecclesiastes 8:6 ¶Because to every purpose there is time and judgment, therefore the misery of man is great upon him.

Yes, there is time and judgment; and??

Revelation 3:3 Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.

Is this talking about the Second Coming?? Nope. But the principle is the same: watch for the signs.

There is one clear conclusion: Noah didn’t know the date until the week before, and only because he needed to know it to carry out his part in God’s plan correctly; unless I need that knowledge for similar reasons, neither will I know.

I can, however, watch for the signs and have faith in them. And that’s what we should all do.

So what are some of the signs given in the Bible that will occur before the Second Coming?
**Ezekiel prophesied that Gog, kind of Magog, would invade Israel at the time of the Lord’s second coming (Ezekiel 38–39):
Ezekiel 39:9 And they that dwell in the cities of Israel shall go forth, and shall set on fire and burn the weapons, both the shields and the bucklers, the bows and the arrows, and the handstaves, and the spears, and they shall burn them with fire seven years:
10 So that they shall take no wood out of the field, neither cut down any out of the forests; for they shall burn the weapons with fire: and they shall spoil those that spoiled them, and rob those that robbed them, saith the Lord God.
11¶ And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will give unto Gog a place there of graves in Israel, the valley of the passengers on the east of the sea: and it shall stop the noses of the passengers: and there shall they bury Gog and all his multitude: and they shall call it The valley of Hamon-gog.
12 And seven months shall the house of Israel be burying of them, that they may cleanse the land.

Seven years and seven months, and then more… Has this happened yet? No. Has it even started? I don’t think so.

# The sun shall be darkened and the moon shall not cause her light to shine, Isa. 13:10 (Joel 3:15).
# Israel shall be gathered with power, Isa. 49:22–23.
# God shall set up a kingdom which shall not be destroyed, Dan. 2:44.
# All nations will gather against Jerusalem to battle, Zech. 14:2 (Ezek. 38–39).
# Great calamities shall precede the Second Coming, Matt. 24.
# Paul described apostasy and perilous times of the last days, 2 Tim. 3–4.
# Two prophets will be slain and resurrected in Jerusalem, Rev. 11.
# The gospel shall be restored in the last days by angelic ministry, Rev. 14:6–7.
# Babylon will be established and fall, Rev. 17–18.

Some of them have time limits, too, such as this one:
Revelation 11:2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.
3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

Two of God’s servants will prophesy in Jerusalem for about 3 1/2 years; have they even started? No.

There are more Biblical prophecies, such as those found under “Major Events Preceding the Second Coming”, found at:

So, the Bible itself proves that Judgment Day *cannot be* May 21, 2011, or even anytime soon after.

Could the Second Coming occur within 20 years? Might. Will it come this year? Absolutely not.

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has other signs, not in the Bible (or made much clearer), for those who are interested. These are in the scriptures (especially the Doctrine and Covenants) and the words of the prophets.

Once more, I urge everyone to listen to the words of God’s true prophets:

More on this blog:

Words of Joseph Smith on signs and the Second Coming:
“We shall … do well to discern the signs of the times as we pass along, that the day of the Lord may not ‘overtake us as a thief in the night.’ [See D&C 106:4–5.]”4

“I will prophesy that the signs of the coming of the Son of Man are already commenced. One pestilence will desolate after another. We shall soon have war and bloodshed. The moon will be turned into blood. I testify of these things, and that the coming of the Son of Man is nigh, even at your doors. If our souls and our bodies are not looking forth for the coming of the Son of Man; and after we are dead, if we are not looking forth, we shall be among those who are calling for the rocks to fall upon them [see Revelation 6:15–17].”5

“Dearly and beloved brethren, we see that perilous times have come, as was testified of [see 2 Timothy 3:1]. We may look, then, with most perfect assurance, for the fulfillment of all those things that have been written, and with more confidence than ever before, lift up our eyes to the luminary of day, and say in our hearts, Soon thou wilt veil thy blushing face. He that said, ‘Let there be light,’ and there was light [see Genesis 1:3], hath spoken this word. And again, Thou moon, thou dimmer light, thou luminary of night, shalt turn to blood.

“We see that everything is being fulfilled; and that the time shall soon come when the Son of Man shall descend in the clouds of heaven.”6

“The earth will soon be reaped—that is, the wicked must soon be destroyed from off the face of the earth, for the Lord hath spoken it, and who can stay the hand of the Lord, or who is there that can measure arms with the Almighty, for at his commands the heavens and the earth must pass away. The day is fast hastening on when the restoration of all things shall be fulfilled, which all the holy prophets have prophesied of, even unto the gathering in of the house of Israel. Then shall come to pass that the lion shall lie down with the lamb, etc.

“But, brethren, be not discouraged when we tell you of perilous times, for they must shortly come, for the sword, famine, and pestilence are approaching. There shall be great destructions upon the face of this land, for ye need not suppose that one jot or tittle of the prophecies of all the holy prophets shall fail, and there are many that remain to be fulfilled yet. The Lord hath said that a short work will he make of it, and the righteous shall be saved if it be as by fire [see Romans 9:28; 1 Nephi 22:17].”7

“The scripture is ready to be fulfilled when great wars, famines, pestilence, great distress, judgments, etc., are ready to be poured out on the inhabitants of the earth.”8

“We see that perilous times have truly come, and the things which we have so long expected have at last begun to usher in; but when you see the fig tree begin to put forth its leaves, you may know that the summer is nigh at hand [see Matthew 24:32–33]. There will be a short work on the earth. It has now commenced. I suppose there will soon be perplexity all over the earth. Do not let our hearts faint when these things come upon us, for they must come, or the word cannot be fulfilled.”9

“I have asked of the Lord concerning His coming; and while asking the Lord, He gave a sign and said, ‘In the days of Noah I set a bow in the heavens as a sign and token that in any year that the bow should be seen the Lord would not come; but there should be seed time and harvest during that year: but whenever you see the bow withdrawn, it shall be a token that there shall be famine, pestilence, and great distress among the nations, and that the coming of the Messiah is not far distant.’ ”10

“Judah must return, Jerusalem must be rebuilt, and the temple, and water come out from under the temple, and the waters of the Dead Sea be healed [see Ezekiel 47:1–9]. It will take some time to rebuild the walls of the city and the temple, etc.; and all this must be done before the Son of Man will make His appearance. There will be wars and rumors of wars, signs in the heavens above and on the earth beneath, the sun turned into darkness and the moon to blood, earthquakes in divers places, the seas heaving beyond their bounds; then will appear one grand sign of the Son of Man in heaven. But what will the world do? They will say it is a planet, a comet, etc. But the Son of Man will come as the sign of the coming of the Son of Man, which will be as the light of the morning cometh out of the east [see Joseph Smith—Matthew 1:26].”11

“[I] explained concerning the coming of the Son of Man; also that it is a false idea that the Saints will escape all the judgments, whilst the wicked suffer; for all flesh is subject to suffer, and ‘the righteous shall hardly escape’ [see D&C 63:34]; still many of the Saints will escape, for the just shall live by faith [see Habakkuk 2:4]; yet many of the righteous shall fall a prey to disease, to pestilence, etc., by reason of the weakness of the flesh, and yet be saved in the Kingdom of God. So that it is an unhallowed principle to say that such and such have transgressed because they have been preyed upon by disease or death, for all flesh is subject to death; and the Savior has said, ‘Judge not, lest ye be judged.’ [See Matthew 7:1.]”12

“There is no country in the world with such unruly elements in its population as the
United States. The North American has been prosperous for so long that he is likely to
be driven mad by adversity. The real testing time of the United States is at hand, and
we shall all watch her carefully to see how she carries herself in her darkest hour.
“It has been revealed that the time WILL come in the history of our nation, that one
state will rise against another, one city against another even, even every man’s hand
shall be against his neighbor, until the whole republic will be in general commotion
and warfare. How and when this will take place, the Lord, in his wisdom, has not told
us; but it is sufficient for us to say, that he has told us of the facts that such and such
will be the case.16
“If a war of this description should take place, who could carry on his business in safe-
ty? Who would feel safe to put his crops in the ground, or to carry on any enterprise?
There would be feeling from one state to another and general confusion would exist
throughout the whole Republic. Such eventuality is to be the condition of this whole
nation, and not only this nation, but the nations of Europe.” (Orson Prat, J.D. Vol. 18,
pg. 341)

When we were ready to return, our guide observed, PERHAPS YOU WOULD LIKE TO
INSTRUMENT. One look and the soul sickened. Eye hath not seen, ear hath not heard,
neither hath it entered into the heart of man what folly, corruptions, and abominations are wrought among men to gratify the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eye and the cunning of the devil. But they shall come.” (Parley P. Prat, printed in the Nauvoo Neighbor)

“An inland Empire will be established in these valleys of mountains, which will be a
place of refuge for millions of people to gather to. When the great day of the judg-
ments of God comes upon the earth, and the righteous come here for safety. Our peo-
ple will go east, west, north and south, but the day will come when they will be glad to
come back. We will be shut out from the rest of the world. (Brigham Young, in Provo Utah)


(The following is a vision received by Charles D. Evans, who was a Patriarch to the Church in Springville, Utah, and was a school teacher by profession. In 1893 his vision was published in Volume 15 of The Contributor magazine which was later known as The Improvement Era.)
My vision now became extended in a marvelous manner, and the import of the past labors of Elders was made plain to me. I saw multitudes fleeing to our place of safety in our mountain heights, that was established in the wilderness. Simultaneously, the nation had reached an unparalleled prosperity. Wealth abounded, new territory was acquired, commerce extended, fnance strengthened, confidence was maintained, and people abroad pointed to her as a model nation, the ideal of the past now realized and perfected, the embodiment of the liberty which was sung by poets and sought for by sages.
“But,” continued the messenger, “Thou beholdest a change. Confidence is lost, wealth is arrayed against labor, labor against wealth, yet the land abounds in plenty of food and raiment, and silver and gold in abundance. Thou seest also the letters written by a Jew have wrought a great confusion in the finance of our nation; which altogether with the policy of many wealthy ones, has produced distress and do produce further sorrows.”
Factions now sprang up as if by magic. Capital had entrenched itself against labor, and throughout the land labor was organized in opposition to capital. The voice of the wise sought to tranquilize their powerful factors in vain. Excited multitudes ran wildly about, strikes increased, lawlessness sought a place in the regular government.
At this juncture, I saw floating in the air a banner whereupon was written, “BANKRUPTCY, FAMINE, FLOODS, CYCLONES, BLOOD, AND PLAGUES.” Mad with rage, men and women rushed upon each other. Blood flowed down the streets of cites like water. Thousands of bodies lay unentombed in the streets. Men and women fell dead from terror inspired by fear. This was but the precursor of the bloody work of the morrow. All around lay the mournfulness of a past in ruins. Monuments erected to perpetuate the names of the noble and brave men, were ruthlessly destroyed by combustibles.
A voice now sounded these words; “Yet once again I shake not only the earth, but also heaven, and this word once again signifies the removing of things that are made, that those things that cannot be shaken may remain.”
Earthquakes rent the earth in vast chasms which engulfed multitudes. Terrible groaning and wailings filled the air. The shrieks of the suffering were indescribably awful. Waters rushed in from the tumultuous ocean, whose very roaring under the mad rage of fierce cyclones was unendurable to the ear.
Cites were carried away in an instant. Missiles were hurled through the atmosphere at a terrible velocity, and people were carried upward only to fall. Islands appeared where ocean waves once tossed the gigantic steamer. In other parts, voluminous flames emanated from vast fires, rolled with fearful velocity, destroying life and property in their destructive course.
The seal of the dread menace of despair was stamped on every human visage. Men fell exhausted, appalled and trembling. Every element of agitated nature seemed a demon of wrathful fury. Dense clouds, blacker than midnight, obscured the sunlight with a thunder that reverberated with intonations which shook the earth. Darkness reigned unrivaled and supreme.
Again the light shone revealing an atmosphere tinged with a leaden hue; which was the precursor of an unparalleled plague, whose first symptoms were recognized by a purple spot which appeared on the cheek or on the back of the hand, and which invariably enlarges untl it spread over the inner surface of the body, producing certain death. Mothers, at the sight of it cast away their own children as if they were poisonous reptiles. This plague in grown persons, rotted the eyes from their sockets and consumed the tongue as would a powerful acid or an intense heat. Wicked men, suffering under its writhing agonies, cursed God and died while they yet stood on their feet, and birds of prey feasted on their carcasses.
I saw again in my dream the messenger appear with a vial in his right hand. He addressed me saying, “Thou knowest somewhat of the chemistry taught in the schools of human learning. Behold now a chemical sufficiently powerful to change the waters of the sea.”
He then poured out his vial upon the sea and it became as the blood of a dead man, and every living thing died. Then other plagues followed which I forbear to record.
A foreign power had inroaded the nation, and from every human indication, it appeared as if it would seize the government and supplant it with monarchy.
I stood trembling at the aspect, when a power arose in the west which declared itself in favor of the Constitution IN ITS ORIGINAL FORM. To this suddenly rising power, every lover of constitutional rights gave hearty support. The struggles was fercely contested, but the stars and stripes floated in the breeze, and bidding liberty to all, waved proudly over the land.
Among the many banners, I saw one inscribed thus: “THE GOVERNMENT BASED ON THE CONSTITUTION NOW AND FOREVER!” On another there was, “LIBERTY OF CONSCIENCE.” There were several others both religious and political.

“A time is coming when the great and populous city of New York, the greatest city of
the American Republic, will be left without inhabitants. The houses will stand, some of
them, not all. They will stand unoccupied, no people to inherit them. It will be the same
in numerous other cites, or in the words of the Lord, I will throw down all their strong-
holds and will execute vengeance and fury upon them, even as upon the heathen, such
as they have not heard. It will all be fulfilled, but there will be a remnant who will be
spared.” (Orson Prat, J.D. pg. 295)

“The time is coming when a good man will be more precious than fine gold.” (J.D. Vol.
10, Brigham Young, pg. 295)

“The sinner will slay the sinner, the wicked will fall upon the wicked, until there is an
utter overthrow and consumption upon the face of the whole earth, until God reigns.”
(J.D. 2:190, Brigham Young)

“If we live, we shall see the nations of the Earth arrayed against this people (Later-
day Saints) for that time must come in fulfillment of prophecy.” (J.D. 5:339, Brigham

“When the testimony of the Elders ceases to be given; and the Lord says to them COME HOME: I WILL NOW PREACH MY OWN SERMONS TO THE NATIONS OF THE EARTH, all you now know can scarcely be called a preface to the sermon that will be preached
with fire and sword, tempests, earthquakes, hail, rain, thunders and lightnings, and
fearful destructions. You will hear of magnificent cites, idolized by the people sinking
in the earth, entombing the inhabitants. The sea will heave itself beyond its bounds,
engulfing mighty cites. Famine will spread over the nations and nation will rise up
against nation, kingdom against kingdom and states against states in our own country
and in foreign lands; and they will destroy each other.”

“All that you know now can scarcely be called a preface to the sermon that will be preached with fire and sword, tempests, earthquakes, hail, rain and fearful destruction. What matters the destruction of a few railway cars? You will hear of magnificent cities, now idolized by the people, sinking in the earth entombing its inhabitants. The sea will heave itself beyond its bounds, engulfing many cities. Famine will spread over the nation, and nation will rise against nation, kingdom against kingdom, states against states, in our own country and in foreign lands.” Brigham Young

“What then will be the condition of the people when the great and dreadful war will come? It will be very different from the war between the North and South. It will be neighborhood against neighborhood, city against city, town against town, state against state, and they will go forth destroying and being destroyed. Manufacturing will almost cease, great cities will be left desolate. The time will come when the great city of New York will be left without inhabitants…

“When that day shall come (when the missionaries will be called home) there shall be wars, not such wars as have come in centuries and years that are past and gone, but a dsolating war. When I say desolating, I mean that it will lay these european nations in waste. Cities will be left vacated, without inhabitants. The people will be destroyed by the sword of their own hands. Not only this but many other cities will be burned; for when contending armies are wrought up with the terrible anger, without the Spirit of God upon them, when they have not that spirit of humanity that now characterizes many of the wars amongst nations, when they are left to themselves, there will be no quarter given, no prisoners taken, but a war of destruction, of desolation, of the burning of the cities and villages, until the land is laid desolate.” (J. Disc. 20: 150) Orson Pratt

2011, April 14

“Irony in the Gospel of Jesus Christ: ‘You Aren’t Christian’, Said the Christian to the Christian (Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saint/ LDS/ Mormon), ‘Because even though You Believe in Jesus Christ and Research Shows You’re Closer to Original Christianity, The Way I Interpret the Bible Says You Aren’t Christian'” grego

Irony in the Gospel of Jesus Christ: ‘You Aren’t Christian’, Said the Christian to the Christian (Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saint/ LDS/ Mormon), ‘Because even though You Believe in Jesus Christ and Research Shows You’re Closer to Original Christianity, The Way I Interpret the Bible Says You Aren’t Christian’


A preacher preaches:
“the religious sect does not align with historic Christianity. In fact, it preaches a false gospel.”

grego says:

Citations, please! The research I’m familiar with says the opposite. (Which is funny, because I haven’t ever heard a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints bring that up in an explanation as to why they believe the church is true… though it’s there.)

The preacher continues:

“We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel,” according to the Mormon Articles of Faith.

Those laws and ordinances include faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, repentance, baptism by immersion for emission of sins and the laying on of hands for the gifts of the Holy Spirit.

Additionally, the way to salvation includes joining the LDS church, believing in God, Jesus and Joseph Smith (LDS founder) as prophet and Brigham Young as successor.

Explaining what Christians believe, Phillips stated that the true gospel of the Bible proclaims that salvation comes by faith alone in Jesus Christ alone and by the grace of God alone.

“It’s not Jesus plus anything,” the pastor emphasized.

“Salvation is a free and unmerited gift from God,” he added.

Here are my thoughts on that:

And who the heck does this pastor think he is, putting himself in the equation?!?? How ironic—take out Joseph Smith and Brigham Young (and many more he didn’t mention!), but put himself in… If I just need Jesus, why do I need this pastor? Anyone?

And if “it’s not Jesus plus anything,” why is the Bible needed?

And if “salvation is a free and unmerited gift from God”, why bother worrying about Mormons/ LDS, who will be saved anyway, right?

And why bother worrying about whether members of his church will join the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormons/ LDS)? Who needs his church, anyway? “I believe in Jesus!” DONE, right?

Oh, did someone say “money”? I don’t know, ask him, don’t ask me.

The pastor continues:

“That is why Jesus became sin for us and took it to the cross and killed it.”

… “In a time where there’s so much religious plurality, there’s so much uncertainty about faith, there’s so much biblical illiteracy, and the media does such a great job of giving us misinformation, in our times we must say without question that Mormonism is not Christianity.”

“It is in fact actually another gospel that leads away from salvation that the Bible offers in Christ alone.”

grego’s thoughts:

Jesus killed? What did he kill? Sin? Could someone explain, please?

Whoops, and here I was, thinking salvation was a free and unmerited gift, only to find out that if you are Mormon, according to some Christian pastor, you actually *demerit* yourself and can’t obtain salvation…? I guess Jesus isn’t strong enough? Or what? Anyone, please?

2011, April 13

“2010 November General Conference: President Henry B. Eyring’s Story about President Kimball in ‘Serve with the Spirit’ Makes More Sense Now” by grego

“2010 November General Conference: President Henry B. Eyring’s Story about President Kimball in ‘Serve with the Spirit’ Makes More Sense Now”


We were reading President Eyring’s talk “Serve with the Spirit” for Priesthood meeting and once more I ran into the story about President Kimball (
We need not worry about knowing the right thing to say or do when we get there. The love of God and the Holy Spirit may be enough. When I was a young man I feared that I would not know what to do or to say to people in great need.

Once I was at the hospital bedside of my father as he seemed near death. I heard a commotion among the nurses in the hallway. Suddenly, President Spencer W. Kimball walked into the room and sat in a chair on the opposite side of the bed from me. I thought to myself, “Now here is my chance to watch and listen to a master at going to those in pain and suffering.”

President Kimball said a few words of greeting, asked my father if he had received a priesthood blessing, and then, when Dad said that he had, the prophet sat back in his chair.

I waited for a demonstration of the comforting skills I felt I lacked and so much needed. After perhaps five minutes of watching the two of them simply smiling silently at each other, I saw President Kimball rise and say, “Henry, I think I’ll go before we tire you.”

I thought I had missed the lesson, but it came later. In a quiet moment with Dad after he recovered enough to go home, our conversation turned to the visit by President Kimball. Dad said quietly, “Of all the visits I had, that visit I had from him lifted my spirits the most.”

President Kimball didn’t speak many words of comfort, at least that I could hear, but he went with the Spirit of the Lord as his companion to give the comfort. I realize now that he was demonstrating the lesson President Monson taught: “How does one magnify a calling? Simply by performing the service that pertains to it.”

I didn’t get it the first time. I didn’t get it the second time, either.

Then, a few days later, I remembered an incident that happened on my mission.

My mission was not easy, there were many trials, I had personal problems, etc., yet I tried to have the Spirit in a very worldly place. It seemed like a lot of work for few results.

I was in a district of eight missionaries, and two-four of them weren’t, shall we say, fond of me. We were eating at a member’s house, when the cute missionary-aged daughter looked at me and suddenly started laughing. When asked why she was laughing, she waved the question off, which of course just fanned the desire to know even more. The two-four pressed her, hoping to get a juicy laugh or joke on Elder grego, perhaps to pass around the mission. So she told everyone this account:
She had a coworker who hated guys, hoped to never get married much less fall in love, always said bad things about them, etc. Then one day, on the bus, this gal saw a guy and couldn’t stop looking at him. The more she looked, for some reason, the more her heart was softened. After a few minutes, her heart had changed. No, it wasn’t lust, it wasn’t about the guy; she just felt an overpowering feeling of love, and her negative, even hateful feelings towards men… just changed. She then noticed a name tag: “Elder grego” “The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints”. Knowing that her coworker was a member of the church, she told her what had happened.

The missionaries looked absolutely stunned. (And disappointed.)

I was pretty stunned and amazed myself, eh.

I had never said a word. I might not have even looked at her. (I have no clue who she was.) It really wasn’t about me, I’m pretty sure.

And even though I wasn’t sure why then, and I’m not sure why now, it happened. And it helped me understand better the story President Eyring related.

As an extra: if the coworker had never related that story to the member, and if the member had never related that story to me, I never would have known. How many incidents, how many times—for better or for worse—don’t we ever know/ are things hidden from us? What will it be like, when life is over and our eyes are opened to everything?

2011, April 12

“How Do You Turn a Wonderful Christian into a Moronic Jerk in Less than a Second?” by grego

How Do You Turn a Wonderful Christian into a Moronic Jerk in Less than a Second?


I have lots of “drafts” sitting in my draft box, waiting to be completed. I often go there to start, especially when I’m not particularly inspired. There are many times, though, that once there something “pops up” and I’m back to a “New Post” page. This is one of those times.

One of those drafts is titled “A Mormon! A Mormon! Anyone but a Mormon!” and is to be about the USA presidency.

More critical, however, is something on my mind many times over the past years.

I sat by a guy in a high school class year-long; good guy. We talked a lot. Really good Christian, etc.

Unfortunately, he had been brainwashed by his leaders into believing that Mormons were devilish. I glanced through a few anti-Mormon books he brought to class, and thanked him for letting me do so; I guess (now) that he inferred that I was anti-Mormon.
I had no great plan drawn up, or diabolical scheme, or whatever, of misleading him, etc. All year, I was pretty much just “me”.
One day near the end of school I felt a prompting to take a triple combination (Book of Mormon and other scriptures) to school, and he noticed it. He asked what it was, and I let him see it. He thumbed it a second, got red, then quickly handed it back. “Why do you have it?” “It’s mine.” “Why?” “I’m a Mormon.”

He was dumbstruck. Literally. For the rest of the period. And longer. Not that he didn’t want to talk. He couldn’t talk.

I would see him get red, look at me, start to say something, think, then shake his head and look away. Or some variation of that. All in all, one word summed it up best: confused.

I guess he felt the same way about me, as I about him. But he couldn’t understand how I was both a good person AND a “good” Mormon—I guess those two were supposed to be incompatible. (Maybe he figured that those Mormons really were devils, able to appear as such sheep, when in fact they were just wolves in sheep’s clothing…)

It took a few days, but he got his voice back; after that, things weren’t like they had been; but the year still ended somewhat amicably. (I guessed right that he would write some bad things in my yearbook about it, and I thought about sharing my testimony in his yearbook, but I decided it would be better not to; I had already done so in person.)

That guy was not a hypocritical Christian, but one who seemed to do his best (and it was good) at being a Christian.

That brings me to other experiences, on the internet.

It’s disheartening to see so many Christians who “get it” in so many ways, have great intentions, and would make wonderful partners in working together to do good and uphold truly Christian principles and the Constitution, and could surely be an example to and teach members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints about much—then lose it all and close their doors and lock them as soon as “Mormon” is brought up (similarly as my friend did).

I have posted on some of these good Christian websites, but the posts never make it up—even if I include nothing about Mormons except this website address when it asks for one in the identification process. They can’t even edit out my website address, and add my positive comment.

I have heard and seen all kinds of similar things on Christian discussion boards.

It seems that any type of common ground, whether sought or not, is denied as much as possible. I understand much better now: of course no Christian wants to say members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints/ Mormons are Christians; that finds common ground.

For some reason, that word—“Mormon”—is so powerful it can make otherwise wonderful Christians turn into moronic jerks in less than a second.

So, if this continues (and I’m sure it will), perhaps in the coming days Christians will take a stand against the church of Satan/ Illuminati and the government—pretty much by themselves. And when help is needed, and they are desperate beyond measure, they’ll turn to those they ignored/ cast out/ persecuted before and cry for help—and the help will come.

Hold on, brother, hold on!

2011, April 10

“2011 April General Conference of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints: President Boyd K. Packer on Homosexuality” by grego

2011 April General Conference of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints: President Boyd K. Packer on Homosexuality


“In another revelation, the Lord’s standard of morality commands that the sacred powers to beget life be protected and employed only between man and woman, husband and wife. 13 To misuse this power is exceeded in seriousness only by the shedding of innocent blood and denying the Holy Ghost. 14 If one transgresses the law, the doctrine of repentance teaches how to erase the effect of this transgression.

Everyone is tested. One might think it is unfair to be singled out and subjected to a particular temptation, but this is the purpose of mortal life—to be tested. And the answer is the same for everyone: we must, and we can, resist temptations of any kind.”

Simple. Beautiful.

2011, April 9

“LDS/ Mormon Healing: Is Ayurveda from Satan? A Response Critique of the Article ‘Ayurveda Occult?’ by Rosabella Knightley” by grego

LDS/ Mormon Healing: Is Ayurveda from Satan? A Response Critique of the Article “Ayurveda Occult?” by Rosabella Knightley


This is a response critique of the article “Ayurveda Occult?” found at:, posted on October 13, 2009 by Rosabella Knightley.

RK: Ayurveda

Ayurveda is becoming a popular means of alternative medicine. Many in the Church are trying it out to see if it has holistic healing abilities. I am sure it does, yet not from the right side.
grego: I wonder how Ms. Knightley is so sure that Ayurveda comes from Satan? I guess we’ll find out.

RK: These are two quite good articles on Ayurveda that put it in its true perspective.
Hmm… that’s interesting, because if you believe the first site, then you should take a look here: According to the same site, Mormonism is a cult! Maybe they are right about ayurveda; maybe not, eh?
I have looked at the article, and find many problems with it, which I won’t critique much here,m but I will put just a little. The opening salvo statement is by Stephen Barrett from Who is he? I suggest you search this on the internet and read a little: [who is stephen barrett quackwatch]. Then, the majority of the article is not about ayurveda, but about a Chopra, a proponent. Etc.

RK: Maharishi Mahesh Yogi the founder of Transcendental Meditation and the spiritual guru of the Beatles is a key player in making this form of healing popular and bringing it to the public.

Deepak Chopra a leading occultist who uses this in his practice and is one of its primary promoters. It is not based on typical understandings of science. It is based on the power of the “Divine Within” and “Self-Realization” “God Within” “I am God” to cure illnesses.
grego: And many Mormon leaders have committed serious sins. Which means… what, Mormonism is wrong?
“…based on typical understandings of science” is a very dirty phrase. Especially when you understand that Mormon miracles are “not based on typical understandings of science”, either. Do a search on mainstream science and “things that don’t fit”/ that the church of science won’t accept.

RK: Ayurveda
Ayurveda is also known as the “Mother of Healings”.

It is also said to have come from Ancient wisdom in which it was part of a spiritual tradition or “Universal Religion” before it was written down in texts.

“The knowledge of Ayurveda is believed to be of Divine origin and was communicated to the saints and sages of India who received its wisdom through deep meditation.”

The occult teaches that there has always been a “Universal Religion” or “Ancient Wisdom” (the Occult) since the beginning of time that the information is acquired via meditation and through initiations from Master to Pupil with secret oaths. This is not wisdom from Father but is said by occultists to be the wisdom of the “Masters of Wisdom” which they say includes Lucifer as the God of this planet. These Ascended Masters are the great teachers of man. They are also called angels and they say they fell to earth to help mankind evolve. We know them better as demons.

Deepak Chopra teaches all the occult doctrines and is close friends with the rest of the leading occultists of today.

If you want more information on Deepak Chopra and the other occultist beliefs I have written quite a bit on this site about him and one of his many movements called I take the vow. “The New-age Movement and I Take the Vow” If you read that full article it will put in perspective their ultimate goals for a one world order and religion, including their admitting that Lucifer is the one to give the final initiation into the new age.
grego: Ok, I see many loose and questionable connections here, but strong anti-ayurveda conclusions. I disagree with much of this, and so does much experience and research.
I ask the reader to search “energy” on this site to find related articles that explain more about why.

RK: I would stay far away from Ayurveda due to all of its history and the fact that the occult promotes it heavily. From what I have seen it does not merely contain occult ideas, but is occult at its core.

Copyright 2009 by Rosabella Knightley
grego: Ok, what has been seen? Did you see much in this article?
So, what should be used in its place? Only priesthood blessings, I imagine? Because western medicine surely doesn’t offer much better. Let’s see: cut your temple of God and get rid of parts—not very spiritually truthful to me… Ingest lots of synthetic counterfeits of natural substances—not very spiritually truthful to me… Bombard your temple with life-destroying things—not very spiritually truthful to me… Treat the symptom, not the cause—not very spiritually truthful to me.

What is the best choice, really?

2011, April 7

Book of Mormon | “Jacob’s ‘Isle of the Sea’ and Book of Mormon Geography: Mesoamerica or New York?” by grego

Book of Mormon: Jacob’s “Isle of the Sea” and Book of Mormon Geography: Mesoamerica or New York?


(NOTE: This is more of a summary of others’ work than mine, thought the experience in the last paragraph might be a little eye-opening to those investigating Book of Mormon geography.)

Jacob says:
2 Nephi 10:20 And now, my beloved brethren, seeing that our merciful God has given us so great knowledge concerning these things, let us remember him, and lay aside our sins, and not hang down our heads, for we are not cast off; nevertheless, we have been driven out of the land of our inheritance; but *we have been led to a better land*, for the Lord has made *the sea our path*, and *we are upon an isle of the sea*.

This verse seems to connect “sea” = “ocean”, and so is usually understood that the Nephites were upon an “isle of the sea” = “being upon an island of the ocean”. (Or at least, that’s what it appeared to Jacob as.)

Are there another interpretations?

One is that that’s what it appeared to Jacob as:
Alma 22:32 …from the east to the west sea; and thus the land of Nephi and the land of Zarahemla were nearly surrounded by water…

Or, Jacob, having been young at the time, might not have known or remembered the Lehite “landing” situation/ process, and that’s what he “recalled” or observed in his place/ land.

Still, I have a hard time picturing Jacob making this comment while in Guatemala. Had he said this during wet season, possibly; but this was much later, after he had lived through many dry seasons, too. (Was Guatemala ever under much more water, especially in the dry season?)

Mexico, maybe (anciently much more under water). (Though Book of Mormon geography don’t seem to fit Mexico.)

What about New York?

Currently, no.

However, like Mexico, New York has changed a lot over the years. Using older archeology, it fits. Take a look here:

“Nearly surrounded by water”? Looks that way to me. And multiple times! With large bodies of water right nearby, on two sides. Jacob could likely see just one body of water in Guatemala, and there were two directions of land that likely didn’t end; in New York, he could likely see at least two, and easily know of many more nearby.

At least to me, New York is a much better fit than anywhere in Mesoamerica.

Interestingly, I was sitting by a Great Lakes lifeguard on a plane (Lake Erie or Lake Ontario, I think), and she told me that she had had many conversations with tourists at the beach (she called it that!) in which they were either amazed or didn’t believe that the waters they were at were actually lakes and not oceans. (And this was in AD 2009, not 550 BC. ;) ) “Seashore”? No problem.

So does Jacob’s phrase “isle of the sea” fit—especially if “isle” doesn’t mean “small island surrounded by ocean” like we would ethnocentrically interpret it, but “coast” or such as translated in the Bible; and “sea” means “lake” or “sea” (as in “Dead Sea”, “Sea of Galilee”) and not “ocean”? Pretty good fit.

%d bloggers like this: