Book of Mormon Notes– How deep can you dig?

2011, April 12

“How Do You Turn a Wonderful Christian into a Moronic Jerk in Less than a Second?” by grego

How Do You Turn a Wonderful Christian into a Moronic Jerk in Less than a Second?


I have lots of “drafts” sitting in my draft box, waiting to be completed. I often go there to start, especially when I’m not particularly inspired. There are many times, though, that once there something “pops up” and I’m back to a “New Post” page. This is one of those times.

One of those drafts is titled “A Mormon! A Mormon! Anyone but a Mormon!” and is to be about the USA presidency.

More critical, however, is something on my mind many times over the past years.

I sat by a guy in a high school class year-long; good guy. We talked a lot. Really good Christian, etc.

Unfortunately, he had been brainwashed by his leaders into believing that Mormons were devilish. I glanced through a few anti-Mormon books he brought to class, and thanked him for letting me do so; I guess (now) that he inferred that I was anti-Mormon.
I had no great plan drawn up, or diabolical scheme, or whatever, of misleading him, etc. All year, I was pretty much just “me”.
One day near the end of school I felt a prompting to take a triple combination (Book of Mormon and other scriptures) to school, and he noticed it. He asked what it was, and I let him see it. He thumbed it a second, got red, then quickly handed it back. “Why do you have it?” “It’s mine.” “Why?” “I’m a Mormon.”

He was dumbstruck. Literally. For the rest of the period. And longer. Not that he didn’t want to talk. He couldn’t talk.

I would see him get red, look at me, start to say something, think, then shake his head and look away. Or some variation of that. All in all, one word summed it up best: confused.

I guess he felt the same way about me, as I about him. But he couldn’t understand how I was both a good person AND a “good” Mormon—I guess those two were supposed to be incompatible. (Maybe he figured that those Mormons really were devils, able to appear as such sheep, when in fact they were just wolves in sheep’s clothing…)

It took a few days, but he got his voice back; after that, things weren’t like they had been; but the year still ended somewhat amicably. (I guessed right that he would write some bad things in my yearbook about it, and I thought about sharing my testimony in his yearbook, but I decided it would be better not to; I had already done so in person.)

That guy was not a hypocritical Christian, but one who seemed to do his best (and it was good) at being a Christian.

That brings me to other experiences, on the internet.

It’s disheartening to see so many Christians who “get it” in so many ways, have great intentions, and would make wonderful partners in working together to do good and uphold truly Christian principles and the Constitution, and could surely be an example to and teach members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints about much—then lose it all and close their doors and lock them as soon as “Mormon” is brought up (similarly as my friend did).

I have posted on some of these good Christian websites, but the posts never make it up—even if I include nothing about Mormons except this website address when it asks for one in the identification process. They can’t even edit out my website address, and add my positive comment.

I have heard and seen all kinds of similar things on Christian discussion boards.

It seems that any type of common ground, whether sought or not, is denied as much as possible. I understand much better now: of course no Christian wants to say members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints/ Mormons are Christians; that finds common ground.

For some reason, that word—“Mormon”—is so powerful it can make otherwise wonderful Christians turn into moronic jerks in less than a second.

So, if this continues (and I’m sure it will), perhaps in the coming days Christians will take a stand against the church of Satan/ Illuminati and the government—pretty much by themselves. And when help is needed, and they are desperate beyond measure, they’ll turn to those they ignored/ cast out/ persecuted before and cry for help—and the help will come.

Hold on, brother, hold on!

2010, April 19

“Book of Mormon: Did Christianity Come from another Religion?” by grego

“Book of Mormon: Did Christianity Come from another Religion?”

(c) 2010

There’s this mistaken belief that Christianity started with Jesus’ earthly life.


Christianity was the first religion we humans had.

Adam and Eve were Christians.

However, it didn’t take long for their children to leave “pure” Christianity, often mixing Christianity with other beliefs to form other, new religions.

Pure Christianity existed down until, while being led from Egypt to the promised land, The Hebrews received the Law of Moses (a “lower” form of Christianity), which was to keep them true in their worship; but, over time, the Jews (those of the kingdom of Judah: mostly the tribe of Judah and part of the tribe of Benjamin) lost the true essence of the Law of Moses—the worship of Christ, the Messiah.

Many parts of the Book of Mormon talk about this: here.

For example, Nephi says:
2 Nephi 25:24 And, notwithstanding we believe in Christ, we keep the law of Moses, and look forward with steadfastness unto Christ, until the law shall be fulfilled.
25 For, for this end was the law given; wherefore the law hath become dead unto us, and we are made alive in Christ because of our faith; yet we keep the law because of the commandments.
26 And we talk of Christ, we rejoice in Christ, we preach of Christ, we prophesy of Christ, and we write according to our prophecies, that our children may know to what source they may look for a remission of their sins.
27 Wherefore, we speak concerning the law that our children may know the deadness of the law; and they, by knowing the deadness of the law, may look forward unto that life which is in Christ, and know for what end the law was given. And after the law is fulfilled in Christ, that they need not harden their hearts against him when the law ought to be done away.

Jesus Christ came to restore the original religion—pure Christianity—and to fulfill the Law of Moses.

So, the next time someone tells you that “‘Religion X’ came before Christianity, etc., etc.”, you can remember this. Sure, many won’t accept it, but…

2009, May 26

Book of Mormon: “To Do the Will, Both of the Father and of the Son–of the Father Because of Me, and of the Son Because of My Flesh” by grego

Book of Mormon: “To Do the Will, Both of the Father and of the Son–of the Father Because of Me, and of the Son Because of My Flesh”
by grego

In the Book of Mormon, Jesus tells Nephi:
3 Nephi 1:14 Behold, I come unto my own, to fulfil all things which I have made known unto the children of men from the foundation of the world, and to do the will, both of the Father and of the Son–of the Father because of me, and of the Son because of my flesh. And behold, the time is at hand, and this night shall the sign be given.

What does that one part mean–“to do the will, both of the Father and of the Son–of the Father because of me, and of the Son because of my flesh”?

At this time Jesus is still a spirit and God, in perfect knowledge, understanding, and unity with His father, God the Father, which also meant he still knew exactly what he was coming to earth for—hence “of the Father because of me”.

When Jesus would come to earth, He would do the will of the Father, as His spirit did at that time when He was just a spirt; He would also inherit powers and blessings from His Father.

“[A]nd of the Son”–of Jesus’ own will, deciding to follow the Father and do the Father’s bidding, notwithstanding His limited knowledge of godly things while in His mortal life, especially at the beginning, a more complete knowledge gained through faith, obedience, and seeking His Father; notwithstanding the temptations of Satan; and the ability to suffer weaknesses of the body of flesh He would receive from His mother.

This is similar to what Abinadi preaches:
Mosiah 15:2 And because he dwelleth in flesh he shall be called the Son of God, and having subjected the flesh to the will of the Father, being the Father and the Son–
Mosiah 15:3 The Father, because he was conceived by the power of God; and the Son, because of the flesh; thus becoming the Father and Son–
Mosiah 15:4 And they are one God, yea, the very Eternal Father of heaven and of earth.
Mosiah 15:5 And thus the flesh becoming subject to the Spirit, or the Son to the Father, being one God, suffereth temptation, and yieldeth not to the temptation, but suffereth himself to be mocked, and scourged, and cast out, and disowned by his people.
Mosiah 15:7 Yea, even so he shall be led, crucified, and slain, the flesh becoming subject even unto death, the will of the Son being swallowed up in the will of the Father.

By receiving His own body, the distinction between the Father and the Son would in some ways be even clearer and more distinct. By growing closer to God over His lifetime, and continuing to do the Father’s will in harder and harder things, He and His Father grew closer to having the most perfect unity they once had before Jesus came in the flesh.

Jesus life was to do the will of the Father:
John 5:30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.

This is best typified in His prayers in the garden of Gethsemane:
Matthew 26:38 Then saith he unto them, *My soul is exceeding sorrowful, even unto death*: tarry ye here, and watch with me.
Matthew 26:39 And he went a little further, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless *not as I will, but as thou wilt*.
Matthew 26:42 He went away again the second time, and prayed, saying, O my Father, *if this cup may not pass away from me, except I drink it, thy will be done*.

Mark 14:35 And he went forward a little, and fell on the ground, and prayed that, if it were possible, the hour might pass from him.
Mark 14:36 And he said, Abba, Father, all things are possible unto thee; take away this cup from me: nevertheless *not what I will, but what thou wilt*.

Luke 22:42 Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless *not my will, but thine, be done*.
Luke 22:44 And being in an agony he prayed more earnestly: and his sweat was as it were great drops of blood falling down to the ground.

When Jesus appears to the Nephites, He says,
3 Nephi 11:10 Behold, I am Jesus Christ…
3 Nephi 11:11 And behold…*I have drunk out of that bitter cup which the Father hath given me*, and have glorified the Father in taking upon me the sins of the world, in the which *I have suffered the will of the Father in all things from the beginning*.

Jesus did come to do both the will of the Father and His own will—because they are both actually just one and the same, and always have been, and always will be.

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2009, February 2

“Prophets, Prophecy, Mormonism/ LDS, and Christian Apologetics Rant” by grego

“Prophets, Prophecy, Mormonism/ LDS, and Christian Apologetics Rant”
by grego

I’ve been reading a few less-than-choice articles from con-LDS Christian apologists about prophets and prophecy. Many follow the same similar course:
1. The LDS Church is wrong because its prophets weren’t true prophets
2. Here is proof they weren’t true prophets: give an example or two (almost always based on personal interpretation/ misinterpretation of either the Bible or the prophets, opinion, half-truths, incomplete reconstruction/ lack of proper context, misquotes, faulty reasoning, a curious process of accepting certain sources and comments but decrying others, third-generation anti-LDS blatant lies, or similar);
3. The Bible is the word of God, not prophets (but then, what is the Bible if not the words of prophets?)
4. Praise Jesus!
5. (For the very, very few of the more daring:) See here, I am a true prophet.
6. Lastly, but perhaps most importantly: Believe me, and of course, join *my* church (the real true church) and maybe give my organization/ me money, which personally benefits me.

For an example about con-LDS’s take on false prophecy, look at the “False Prophecy” section here:

Interestingly, most who are so adamant about pretending to know all about prophecy and proving others to be false prophets, are deafeningly quiet, without prophecy, themselves; maybe because they couldn’t prophesy to save their little finger. No wonder so many of them try to prove that prophets and prophecy “are over” and the Bible is the final word of God. Then, the ones who do claim to be a “prophet” fail so miserably when put through the same tests they put other “prophets” through it’s obvious–without even having to dig into some obscure opinion–that they are less prophets than Miss Cloe.

Hmmm… Ok, so why would anyone, who truly believed in the Bible, want to believe and join someone’s church unless:
1. there were a prophet or apostles at the head, as the Bible clearly shows; or
2. the person who claimed to be a prophet actually showed a life of teachings, prophecies, godly living, faith, hope, charity, etc.?

I just can’t see anyone else who comes close to what should be. The whole thing does seem a little ridiculous to me. Especially in light of the old argument: either the Catholic Church wasn’t the church of God and so everything that came from it wasn’t; or, the Catholic church is the church of God.
I don’t wonder much why so many leaders of Christian churches that broke away from the Catholic Church despise it, or why those who claim their own dispensation out of thin air despise the LDS/ Mormon Church.
It’s illogical to me, and I wonder if the cognitive dissonance—caused by claiming the Bible, then starting or leading a church that doesn’t fit it—causes it.

If people want to believe something, ok, but I find it disturbing that some websites follow the pattern I listed above. See, I would much prefer smart good LDS, and smart good Christians of all sects, even smart and good people of all sects/ religions, rather than less-than-intelligent and bad ones; and it makes me wonder, when I continually see this type of thing: are the leaders really that stupid, or just blind (what I’m hoping for most of the time, and more understandable), or do they believe that their followers are stupid and thus easily fooled? Or do the leaders believe that the ends justify the means, so it’s ok to continually and relentlessly lie, cheat, defame, speak evil against others, etc., in order to “save a soul”? Since this type of attack seems to have been the trend since the beginning of Mormonism, and seems to be getting worse recently, it scares me about the state of Christianity, and its effect on the state of America, in particular. If Christianity (those churches broken off from the Catholic church at some previous time) is trying to become one, I see two main groups and ways: the stupids will try to unite everyone against Mormonism, or the smart and good ones will try to unite everyone on good principles and work with good Mormons and even (gasp!) good non-Christian religionists to stand against those who do the devil’s work–which, I guess, includes those who feel it is possible and ok to do the devil’s work in order to attain God’s glory.

There are things about the LDS religion that seem very problematic, and LDS apologists have even publicly listed them out. These problems are so much stronger, go so much further, and require so much more thinking than the typical con-LDS trash that it’s mind-blowing. But no one seems to care about that. I guess it’s much easier/ requires much less effort and thinking to use Satan’s methods to gather the weak, than to use reason and discuss actual points and maybe even bring people closer to God.

I guess there is one more possible reason, and it comes from a connection between the few good con-LDS arguments that there have been. See, when that happens, LDS apologists research and think even more, and often enough, even deeper and heavier points are “scored” for Mormonism—and maybe that is something that many Christians want to avoid, so they stick with the worn-out, thrown-out, hopeless arguments and hope by passing them on they’ll stick with at least some people, and hey, they tried, right?

If you’ve ever wondered why there’s so much religious crap out there, unfortunately you might have just gotten a big part of the answer.

There are obviously many different types of fish in the sea, so if it doesn’t fit you, it wasn’t meant to; unless you’re the type that it fits all too well but you’ll never see that, in which case, it won’t matter that it meant you anyway…

I truly hope that Christians and everyone (even atheists!) will become better (more good) and smarter and more Christ-like, no matter what religion they profess. The world would certainly be a better place to live in, and more pleasing to God, which would receive more of his blessings.

For those who are truly interested in LDS religious discussion, the best I can suggest is or

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