Book of Mormon Notes–How deep can you dig?

2009, November 26

“‘Together Forever’ When You Hate Your Family?!?” by grego

“‘Together Forever’ When You Hate Your Family?!?”

grego
(c) 2009

Why would anyone–LDS/ Mormon or otherwise–want to (get sealed in the temple to) be able to spend an eternity with a family they hate, spouses they argue with and have little feelings for, and parents-in-law that bug the heck out of you?

If your family life now is hell, how can hell be heaven?

1. Get with it. Change NOW. You can’t stop your wife from nagging, but chances are good you can stop or at least lessen yourself from responding, even if it means running out.

Start by choosing to be responsible for you and your sphere of choices–decide now not to rely on blaming anyone anymore, decide not to play the victim, decide not to hold others responsible for you.

Likewise, you are not responsible for others in the same way.

Yes, both ways there was influence and responsibility; you can say something bad and you are to blame, in a part, when your wife retorts; but you are not your wife, and you did not retort; she did. This distinction is easier to see when two people have the same things happen to them, but they offer very different levels of control and response. (Note Alma 62:41: But behold, because of the exceedingly great length of the war between the Nephites and the Lamanites many had become hardened, because of the exceedingly great length of the war; and many were softened because of their afflictions, insomuch that they did humble themselves before God, even in the depth of humility–same war; some people got further from God, and some people got closer to God.)

When you start to separate what you are responsible for, and what others are responsible for, life is clearer and easier. Why? Because you stop blaming others for every “bad” thing you do, and you stop feeling guilty for every “bad” thing that someone else does. You are taking stewardship of yourself and yours.

2. I used to despise the saying that the same reasons you hate someone (like, your family) are the same reasons you hate yourself. I’ve come to find out, it’s usually true, though it’s often hidden and changed so that it’s not obvious to you (or often to others, either).

Clear *your* bad/ negativity in a relationship, and people often magically have theirs clear up.

And when that saying is not true–because sometimes it’s not, it’s that easy–it’s all them, so to say; when that’s the situation and you do your part, still, you will suddenly see things in a very, very different light.

(Many healed by/ involved in meridian energy work–such as EFT/ Emotional Freedom Technique–can attest to both of these.)

3. There will be no “bad family stuff” or otherwise in the celestial kingdom. If you go in, you won’t be doing it, either. Change will occur between now and then–either changed by or allowed by the Atonement.

Be assured, it will happen. The question is, when they become wonderful people, will you still be holding on them being “bad” people; can you forgive them? Or do you have a purpose of making them get stuck on being bad?

4. Very few people ever begin to understand the influence of the physical body on a person, even if someone gets a “perfect” on their medical checkup, though the church seems to be understanding this more and more, great! For example, in more recent years, there has been change in LDS/ Mormon church policy and guidelines and an emphasis on not judging people who commit suicide. No doubt this will also occur with other situations, too, whether it be in this life or in the next. I have been on basic allergy drugs that have made me violent and (completely?) without a conscience.

But, there’s no need to wait possibly years and years for those good changes to occur at the resurrection; just death–getting rid of our mortal bodies–will do a whole lot for most of us.

Imagine…
no toxins,
no chemicals,
no chemical problems (like in the brain, affecting many emotional problems),
no allergies (which are involved in many more “bad behavior” situations than most could even imagine),
no malfunctioning organs,
no out-of-whack (or even functioning) hormones,
no improper lack or imbalances of minerals,
no stress? (at least from certain sources),
no sensory malfunctioning,
no dehydration,
no lack of sleep,
etc.

(Not sure about electro-magnetic problems, but I imagine they won’t affect us much, either.)

That is a whole lot, and will take care of a whole bunch of problems–be it the original problem or the results that followed some problem people didn’t have control over. (Many people go for years and years before some observant/ attentive/ insightful person says, “Hey, I think you have (some syndrome/ disease/ disorder/…)” and after help, they’re very different, in a positive way. It will be better than that!

Then we’d just be left with perception and personality problems–at least, the ones that aren’t based on “mortalness”.

And I’ll bet many of those problems will fall fast in the Spirit World, too…

Then, imagine the inherited problems you got before you were eight years old–negative reactions, abuse, etc.–going away.

In the end, anyone truly bad/ who won’t change/ isn’t covered by the Atonement/ etc. won’t be there with you in a bad relationship, so don’t worry about being sealed to the imperfect them now!!

(Interestingly, it is certain that at least some negative memories are related to physically encapsulated “storage” crystals in the body (in crystal form, near acupuncture points–see “Body Electronics”). When the body is resurrected, everyone will have a perfect memory; and it’s possible that faith in Jesus Christ and repentance will determine, to a degree, the amount of remaining “negativity” in our bodies that keeps light and energy out and slower. Sorry, just speculating a little right here… ;) )

2009, October 22

“Adam-God Theory” by grego

Adam-God Theory

grego
(c) 2006

Though this isn’t in the Book of Mormon much…

Many have spoken against it recently (relatively speaking), saying it’s not right. But few say why. I’ll share why it seems quite impossible to me.

First, you can’t father yourself:
Moses 6:22 “…the sons of Adam, who was the son of God…”
*Luke 3:38: “which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God.”

Here in the scriptures we see that the Father, the Son, and Adam are three distinct persons:
*Moses 4:28: “And I, the Lord God, said unto mine Only Begotten: Behold, the man is become as one of us to know…”
*D&C 137:3, 5: “I (Joseph F. Smith) saw…the blazing throne of God, whereon was seated the Father and the Son.” “I saw Father Adam …”

Another problem is that it (Heavenly Father as Adam dying again) contradicts the standard works:
*Alma 11:45: Amulek talking about the resurrection: “…that they can die no more; their spirits uniting with their bodies, never to be divided…that they can see no more corruption.”
*Alma 12:18: Alma: “and they cannot die, seeing there is no more corruption.”
*D&C 63:49: “…they shall rise from the dead and shall not die after…”
*D&C 88:116: “…and they shall not any more see death.”
*(much later) D&C 138:17: “the spirit and the body to be united never again to be divided…”

Even if Adam were translated instead of dying, he would still have to die later.
But, we know that Adam did die:
*Moses 4:25: “until thou shalt return unto the ground—for thou shalt surely die…”
*Genesis 5:5: “…Adam…died.”

Adam had died and was still just a spirit when Christ was to be born; how was he to be the father? And if a spirit, why the need for the Holy Ghost to overshadow Mary?

Why don’t the scriptures say something about the reunion between Father and Son in the Spirit World at the Resurrection?

And why would God the Father have to go through this all again, having already gained his exaltation? Especially becoming subject to the will of the devil, to temptations, and sinning. So, the Father has the Son; the Father becomes his own son, or the Son’s son (whoops, no body, no do); then sins and falls, becomes subject to the devil (“Became subject to will of the devil”: D&C 29:40), then is saved by His Son.

Not to mention that the temple now seems to make it even more impossible to believe this theory.

Pres. Kimball also noted that the Adam-God doctrine is false.
posted by grego at 9:23 PM

8:03 PM
LifeOnaPlate said…
The biggest “evidence” for the Adam-God theory is in JoD 1:51. Elder Charles C. Rich, who was serving in the Council of the 12 at the time, stood on the stand and recorded notes as Pres. Young spoke. When he saw the written report he immediately corrected the statement, called it a complete misquotation, and noted it in the margin of his own copy of the JoD, which is now in the Church archives and was seen and attested of by Elder Mark E. Peterson, detailed in his book “Adam: Who Is He?” The quote should read, according to Elder Rich: “Jesus our Elder Brother, was begotten in the flesh by the same character who talked with Adam in the Garden of Eden, and who is our Heavenly Father.” In that same sermon we see Young explicitly pointing to 3 individuals in the creation: Michael, Jehovah and Elohim.
Other times Pres. Young clearly taught they were separate beings:
JoD: 13:311
10:230-231
9:148
10:355
Discourses of BY pg. 105.
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2009, August 11

“I’ve Been Kicked Off of MormonApologetics.Org!” by grego

Filed under: Uncategorized — grego @ 12:10 am
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“I’ve Been Kicked Off of MormonApologetics.Org!”
by grego
(c) 2009

Well, it seems I have been kicked off the mormonapologetics.org site. I get a “403 Forbidden” message when I try to get on; but from other computers, I can get on with no problems (I guess they restricted my IP). I double-checked with a login, and after logging in as “grego”, I immediately received a “403 Forbidden” message also. Yup, it’s clear now. This is not just posting privileges. This is everything.

My last post on the site was when I lost posting privileges for a week. I went back later to see the thread, and the moderators had changed the original thread. (They deleted a post, and changed the words in another post. What?!?) That thread occurred about… two years ago. I haven’t posted there since. I was given no warning, no reason, nothing. So, it must have been some other reason…

Maybe it’s because I have “corrected” the work of some of their “in” people, especially Brant Gardner and many who run with his way of thinking. On www.mormonapologetics.org, I was always ready and willing to engage everyone and their point of view, on their, my, or a third person’s work, but I know others seemed to have a problem with that… “Nevermind the clown, folks, we’re trying to have a *real* discussion here.” I thought that’s what FAIR and its acronym might have stood for, and what they chided Rodney Meldrum for. I guess my putting holes in some theories (such as Others and the Lehites, surviving Jaredites) didn’t help…

I was and am a person who believes that the Book of Mormon was meant for our day a lot because of politics, and some articles have been about that. I know that didn’t go over well with many.

Perhaps I said something they didn’t like? Perhaps someone finally read the truth in my “About Me” and didn’t like it? Perhaps “I’m sorry” is too hard to say?

It could have been this article: “LDS Apologetics FAIR Says: ‘Absolutely Forbidden by Scripture’–Which Scripture?” that tipped the scales, though it would have been very quick work… I imagine if it were because of an article, it would have had to have been this one: Book of Mormon | “Countering Critique of the Ox Argument for Others in the Land”. See, the Ox Argument is the sacred cow of the “Others in the Land” position, and that article effectively slaughtered it.

Whatever the reason might have been, I imagine it’s probably very justifiable in their minds. In fact, if I were a mormonapologetics.com FAIR people, I would have kicked grego off the board a long time ago, because let’s face it: it’s so much easier to “forbid” someone from a site, than to actually respond to and with logic/ scholarliness. It’s a favorite anti-Mormon trick, and it seems someone has learned well from their enemies.

Oh well, I hadn’t posted for a very long time, and didn’t plan on it as long as the perpetrators of the closing thread remained in good standing…

So, to anyone who added me as a friend or who has messages or whatever, it’s useless to contact me through that means anymore.

I do thank them for the opportunities I had to interact with everyone and discuss lots of ideas, and I thank the (good) moderators for the volunteer work they put in. It was a decent time, and there are some great thinkers there. Perhaps you, the reader, would enjoy commenting there, and I hope you have a better experience than I at the end.

2009, August 10

“LDS Apologetics FAIR Says: ‘Absolutely Forbidden by Scripture’–Which Scripture?” by grego

Filed under: Uncategorized — grego @ 11:59 pm
Tags: , , , ,

“LDS Apologetics FAIR Says: ‘Absolutely Forbidden by Scripture’—Which Scripture?”
by grego
(c) 2009

Reading on a FAIR apologetics page, I noticed this (from http://www.fairlds.org/Book_of_Mormon/MisguidedF.html):

“Mr. Meldrum insists that the blessing affirms ‘the validity [of] the…work.’ Most Latter-day Saints know that the recitation of the contents of a blessing to others with the intention of convincing them that one’s course is in harmony with the powers of heaven is absolutely forbidden by scripture.”

Ok, does anyone have a scripture reference(s) that “absolutely [forbids]” this?

2009, June 16

If 12-Step Addiction Recovery Programs Aren’t as Good as Other Addiction Recovery Methods, Why Is ‘LDS [Mormon] Social Services’ Relying on It?

If 12-Step Addiction Recovery Programs Aren’t as Good as Other Addiction Recovery Methods, Why Is ‘LDS [Mormon] Social Services’ Relying on It?
by grego
(c) 2009

In the June 2009 Ensign, there is an article called “Addiction Recovery: Healing One Step at a Time” (p. 61-65). Oh, LDS Social Services, what is going on?

I know that maybe a year ago or so, LDS Social Services was notified about new addiction recovery methods that had a much better recovery rate than 12-step programs, and also took a lot less time, stress, and money to use. It seems LDSSS weren’t interested, and preferred their 12-step program, and that was that.

Let me ask you, what do you think the main point of an addiction recovery program is? Do you think it is to recover from addiction? Is that what you would hope for?

I noticed, in the Ensign article, that there was no “recovery rate” or “success rate” given for the Church’s addiction recovery program. I would be very interested in knowing what it is; LDS Social Services, can you tell us the rate? Hopefully it is above the about seven percent (7%) recovery rate for other 12-step programs!

That’s right, about 93 out of 100 people will likely *fail* using this addiction recovery method. How much hope does that bring you?

Ok, perhaps those 93 people’s willpower wasn’t strong enough, perhaps they didn’t desire “the good” enough, perhaps they lacked faith… PERHAPS.

But if *your own spouse or child* were addicted, and there were much better ways to recover from addiction, would you settle for a 7% recovery chance? I sure as hell wouldn’t, and I hope you don’t, either.

(More about 12-step addiction recovery:
Here’s a list of some studies done on the effectiveness of Alcoholics Anonymous: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Effectiveness_of_Alcoholics_Anonymous.

Many 12-step programs treat addiction as a disease that people are powerless to overcome on their own. I understand the Atonement and all that, but I wonder how the disease and powerlessness model matches up with the gospel?

Many also identify as “an [addict]” (of whatever they are addicted to), which only reinforces their addiction (“I’m Joseph, I’m an alcoholic.”). Why don’t they identify as “I am a child of God who sometimes has a problem with [whatever addiction] control”? I hope the LDS Church support groups don’t ever use the typical identity statements.

Notwithstanding the muddiness of the conclusions of many of the studies, on the referenced page (above) it says: “In the sample of 100 severe alcoholics from his clinic, 48% of the 29 alcoholics who eventually achieved sobriety attended 300 or more AA meetings”. Whoa! Only 29% eventually (after how many years or decades would that be?) achieved sobriety, and almost half attended 300 (that’s basically once a week for six years) or more (400, 600, 1000+—how many more??) meetings. So 12-step programs seem to be this never-ending cycle of meetings with sponsors and sponsees, which seems to show that in order to overcome an addiction, they must become addicted—to addiction recovery meetings! Some studies show that no intervention actually had a better recovery rate. These meetings could re-enliven and reinforce the bad choices, the pain, the fear, the guilt, and the shame. I figured part of recovery (and the Atonement) was getting past all that…?

Ok, this isn’t a research paper on AA or 12-step addiction recovery, and this isn’t my specialty… I just wanted to point out a few things. On to the important and exciting part!)

Here are some other things that will be better than most 12-step addiction recovery programs:
1. Emotional Freedom Technique (EFT) and other meridian energy therapies. I cannot stress enough, ***DO THIS FIRST!!!!!***
Using EFT, I have put multiple years-old phobias to rest in one session (less than two hours every time, no matter how complex they have been). EFT has cured addictions of alcohol, cigarette, coffee, cocaine, inhalants, caffeine, soft drinks, sugar, and even chocolate—often in one session. (Follow-up home “maintenance” was often recommended and done “just in case”, to ensure permanent success.) If you prefer a one-hour addiction recovery, at a cost of maybe $40-$120–instead of the I’ve-abstained-for-20-years-but-I’m-not-quite-really-fully-ever-recovered-from-my-disease-but-I-attend-12-step-meetings scenario, try EFT. Check it out at www.emofree.com. (Search “addiction” for a few case examples.) Find a practitioner, and do it. Period.

2. Contact John Wingert (now goes by the name of Twenty Twenty) about his addiction recovery program. When his son got addicted and he was supporting him, he saw problems with the 12-step program his son was in, and tried for something better. He has worked and works with addicts, and is not/ will not be offended by your spouse or child’s language, thoughts, etc. He can be found at www.2020unleashed.com, www.exhostage.com, and other websites. The man is the real deal.

3. Kinesiology, Neuro-Linguistic Programming (NLP) and hypnotherapy are also useful tools for addiction recovery. Search for practitioners in these areas on the internet and ask them about treatment.

4. Certain addiction recovery programs and centers do much better than others, and many therapies do better than 12-step programs. Go for the successful ones. They might cost more, but it might be worth it, right? Search on the internet. Ask for detailed success rates and about how they are arrived at.

5. Special drugs—such as ibogaine, for example (see http://www.relfe.com/ibogaine.html)—or methods can be used; unfortunately, they might be illegal in the USA. You’ll have to search for the drugs and methods, and go out of country, but some people might prefer it to what’s happening.

The 12-step addiction recovery programs seem to not include other things about addiction must usually be understood and addressed for a fuller recovery, including:
*dopamine addiction (the true cause of most addictions);
*emotional, spiritual, mental, and social reasons for addiction;
*influence of other disorders/ syndromes/ etc. on addiction;
*stress control;
*replacing negative addictive behaviors with others;
*social reorientation;
*the role of the environment and about controlling it;
*filling the emptiness inside;
*life purpose;
*communication;
*education;
*learning (and learning problems);
*dealing with problems and problem solving;
*etc.

Though these things might be talked about at meetings, 12-step recovery programs don’t directly deal with these things. At least a few of these subjects will be helpful
and maybe even essential for every person recovering from addiction.

I hope LDS Social Services will reconsider their limited traditional programs and counseling and bring more true hope and recovery into people’s lives.


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Solutions to LDS/ Mormon Missionary Work Problems, Part 6

Solutions to LDS/ Mormon Missionary Work Problems, Part 6
by grego
(c) 2009

Interestingly, something similar has already been done, and with pretty good results.

I believe that Elders Oak and Holland were sent to the Philippines and Chile, respectively, to get first-hand experience with this type of situation. Those two countries are probably the highest in baptisms, yet worst in retention.

I don’t know about Elder Holland and Chile, but I have heard that Elder Oaks brought the Philippines from below 10% retention to over 85%, and in at least one district, to 100%. I wish I had the details.

That has been over two years ago or so.

I hope the Church will expand the program to other countries, as quickly as possible. Even if it’s not perfect, it’s much better than what we have right now, and I really, really wish we had it!!

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Solutions to LDS/ Mormon Missionary Work Problems, Part 5 by grego

Solutions to LDS/ Mormon Missionary Work Problems, Part 5
by grego

If I were in charge of missionary work, I would contemplate the following changes:
1. missionaries should refrain from making any types of promises to investigators about their getting baptized, when, etc.
2. raise the bar—for baptizees! (If one admits it worked for missionaries, one has to at least admit it might work for baptizees, and give it a chance.) I would concentrate on the following, *before* baptism: instilling habits (21 straight days, minimum) of daily scripture reading, prayer, weekly three-hour attendance, and a time limit (at least two weeks, maybe more?) for abstinence for Word of Wisdom, chastity problems, etc. before baptism.
3. lengthen the baptismal preparation time for the average investigator to at least one month, and involve members. No one gets baptized in less than a month. This would allow time for stronger faith and desire for repentance, actual conversion, correlation between missionaries and members (including home teachers/ visiting teachers assignments going both ways), baptismal planning, baptismal finding, opportunities for attendance at service projects and activities, etc., and especially a witness of fruits of repentance.
4. make the baptismal interview different; a mere whiff of belief or a “I feel the church is good” feeling would not be sufficient. People lacking in spiritual knowledge should have a strong desire to discover the truth by exercising faith by living according to the commandments. This should be done at least a week before the baptism.
5. make missionaries responsible for all previous new members (one year after baptism), especially reteaching lessons 1-4 and teaching lesson 5. (This is in “Proclaim My Gospel”, but I don’t know of any missionaries here that do this.)
6. investigators should clearly know they will be expected to serve others, have callings, be called on to pray and give talks and comment in class, etc. This will take their time, money, effort, and obedience.
7. baptisms would be held twice a month. Investigators should get baptized at a scheduled baptism.


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2009, June 8

“Solutions to LDS/ Mormon Missionary Work Problems: Part 1″ by grego

Solutions to LDS/ Mormon Missionary Work Problems: Part 1
by grego
(c) 2009

[Ever since being very dissatisfied with the way missionary work was done on my mission (including how I did it), I've had a few thoughts about missionary work, and they've grown a little over the years. A little background, for those who just *have* to know before they'll even consider the ideas: I've had the callings of called missionary, ward mission leader (twice, in different wards), member of bishopric working with missionaries (twice), Gospel Essentials teacher (twice), etc.]

We had about 80 baptisms last year in our ward. Of those, there are currently about 20 that at least fit the “once-a-month” “active” definition, and about 10 that come regularly. Since the year just ended, these numbers don’t reflect true activity rate, because it hasn’t been a year since their baptism (which is when retention rate is measured, I believe). I do not know what those numbers will be a year after their baptism, but I can’t imagine them being higher.

Over the year, our ward sacrament meeting attendance has increased by 10-20 on average. I think we’re doing a little better than average for our stake.

Out of those who were baptized, some felt pressured by the missionaries, some have mental (and comprehension) problems, some have only belief, and a few seem to… well, have little or no testimony at all. (A few leaders have been surprised, shocked, and even appalled that it seems anyone who wants to get baptized, can. I don’t believe that’s the way it was ever intended to be. We invite all people to attend, even long-term, but only those who meet the requirements for baptism should be baptized.)

So, what are the consequences of our last year’s baptismal situation and retention?

*Many members (including me) don’t want to meet and help investigators, or especially attend baptisms. If I haven’t seen the person at church a few times, or seen them volunteer to help out or seen them at a service project, or heard them bear testimony, I wouldn’t go to their baptism even if it were convenient. It’s 40 minutes travel, minimum (unless it’s on Sundays, in which case–if I don’t have interviews, meetings, etc.–I can and have attended). Yeah, I know, sucky attitude, but that’s what I feel.

*One, two, maybe three at the most remain active (at least partially) out of every 10 who are baptized.

*Probably eight or nine go on church records and “to home teach” lists but are mostly inactive. Assuming baptisms are equal between males and females, each time two brethren stay active and begin home teaching, there are already 18 new people on their home teaching list [the 16 inactives (8+8) and two active sisters]. I get really uncomfortable when I hear “we should sacrifice and be hometeaching a plethora of people” comments; it would be great if everyone were active and we could teach two other brothers’ families, and a few sisters–that’s much more manageable for every month, I think.

*Members might spend lots of time contacting and visiting these inactive members trying to bring them back to activity. Missionaries sometimes also spend lots of time visiting these inactive members and trying to bring them back to activity.

*Of those that go inactive, many don’t want much (or anything) to do with the LDS Church—it’s just a bitter taste in their mouth. So, for every one-three people helping missionary work, there are now many people who hurt it.

Are there success stories with this scenario? Absolutely!

Is this the best way to do it?

On to Part 2.


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2009, May 23

“Self-Defense for LDS/ Mormon Men: Why Not?” by grego

Filed under: Uncategorized — grego @ 1:01 am
Tags: , ,

Self-Defense for LDS/ Mormon Men: Why Not?
by grego
(c) 2009

In a previous post–”Book of Mormon: What’s Worth Fighting and Dying For?” (http://bookofmormonnotes.wordpress.com/wp-admin/post.php?action=edit&post=141), I wrote a little about, well, what’s worth fighting and dying for. Here, I want to talk about problems with carrying out our duties as husbands/ fathers/ sons/ MEN, especially relating to defense/ protection of ourselves, our families, our homes, our rights, etc.

(By the way, I consider this to be a very rough first draft! Even though, yeah, it’s published, and even though I may never get around to making it any better…)

Some, if not many, LDS men are great because they aren’t really into this “violence” thing. But defense =/= violence, and violence =/= defense. We’re discussing godly defense and protection, not ungodly violence.

So how come LDS men sometimes aren’t very good at doing what LDS men are supposed to do, as taught and shown in the scriptures?

Here are a few reasons we think, I think:

1. We think, “It’s never happened to me, it won’t, and if it does, the police will save me.”
Maybe, but it’s likely the police will get there just in time to clean up the mess that has already been made.

2. “Someone might get hurt practicing.”
Yes, it’s true, someone might get hurt in practice/ learning/ preparation/ etc. It’s definitely something that needs to be done with wisdom and according to our circumstances, abilities, and environment. Chances are, though, that someone will get hurt even worse if you don’t do something now to prepare.

3. “It’s scary crap.”
It is. The videos you can watch of real fights can be sickening, revolting, and make you queasy to your stomach. They don’t go well with the Spirit, nor bring its fruits. But imagine yourself in one of them, and you can’t do anything to defend yourself, because you were scared. Even scarier, imagine you and your family in one of them, and you can’t do anything to help them, because you were scared.
Besides, once more, defense is much more than just brawling and whooping butt.

4. “I suffer enough; do you want me to suffer more?”
As disciples of Christ, yes, we often suffer a lot. It’s so much easier to not do anything lots of times, than to stand up and say something or especially do something. But even so, shouldn’t we at least talk sometimes? Isn’t there another kind of suffering—the kind that comes when we regret not having done what we should have done? The kind that comes from watching innocent, defenseless people suffer because we don’t want to suffer?

5. “The Lord will provide; the Lord will fight my battles.”
Like He provided for Lehi, Moses, Nephi, Abraham, David, Alma the elder and his people; the early Saints. In fact, the Book of Mormon is all about deliverance, both physical and spiritual. He often does perform miracles on our behalf, but isn’t it after we have done something, or at least shown our faith, commitment, and courage? And there might be times when more on our part is required, as with the need for the Nephites to continually defend themselves against the Lamanites, unto death. Like Nephi, we hope the Lord will take care of all our Labans like He did the Egyptians—we just need to follow the Spirit and be faithful to Him, and He will do everything else; but we might have to at least raise a sword sometime.
Remember, it’s easier to ask God’s help—and get it when it’s needed—when we have done our part/ tried to do something, other than sit around and hope nothing happens.

6. “If you speak out, you will get hurt!”
Yeah, it’s pretty much always been that way, huh? It might not happen that way every time, but it could happen.
Here are a few examples in the Book of Mormon:
On the other hand, speaking out might save someone, and do much good. Here are a few examples in the Book of Mormon:

7. “I’m embarrassed.”
I have a feeling this is probably the biggest. I’m sure some LDS men would rather be caught buying pornography than a book/ DVD about self-defense! There’s something about our culture, or at least parts of it—that strongly supports and cultivates that mindset. It’s cool to go to the gym or go running, but mention you are studying kung-fu, and suddenly no one wants to talk to you… be it the girls at the party or your wife.
Do you remember the socio-religious uproar when BYU’s wrestling coach and LDS/ Mormon member, Mark Schultz, fought in the UFC (Ultimate Fighting Championships)? Calls for his dismissal were all over. Calls for his excommunication came in, too. As with Professor Jones and 911, threatenings of withdrawals of donations also came in. Here’s how one writer put it (from http://www.sherdog.com/news/articles/3/Mark-Schultz-Where-Is-He-Now-15062):
“Following his one-sided thrashing of Goodridge in his MMA debut, Schultz promptly disappeared from the scene to keep his coaching job at BYU. His exit was one of the great mysteries of the sport, which was just getting its foothold in the states, along with the big money that would come a few years later.
“The president of the school at the time was already anti-wrestling, and on the front cover of the Salt Lake Tribune, there was a picture of me on top of Gary Goodridge with him all bloody,” [Schultz] said.”

And also this (from http://www.njpw.com/interviews/schultz.shtml):
“That’s because in 1996 after the UFC 9, there was a lot of publicity about it in Utah. They put my picture on many tabloid covers, but at the same time, I was the head coach of BYU, and there were many people who disagreed with my action in competing in the NHB match. This type of event was new at the time and back then, and there were not many rules. There were only two or three rules and people thought it was brutal, and a lot of people were upset and complaining to the president of BYU. So the president said to me, “You can either coach amateur wrestling at BYU or fight, but you can’t do both.” I had three kids and had to decide on taking the coaching career because I needed the health insurance and stuff.” (Sidenote: BYU stopped its wrestling program about four years after, leaving Schultz without a job.)

As that makes it clearly known and seen, many Mormons—especially Utah Mormons, it seems—don’t like the idea, plain and simple. I mean, a true disciple of Christ, a staff member at the Lord’s university, would never do that! Unless, perhaps, you’re taking some form of “spiritual karate” lessons or “we don’t even hurt bugs” martial art.

On the other hand, those nonviolent sports—such as BYU football and church basketball (especially with the clawed women) or church fast-pitch softball–are so much more Christ-like and becoming a Saint…

Sure, there’s no reason to be pro-violence; but unless you’re on the stature of an Anti-Nephi-Lehi, is there a reason to support others being “pro-violence”, in that you let others violate you, your family, and others?

8. Some men just aren’t very good at defense; it’s not their cup of postum.
I understand. (Believe me, I understand!) Maybe if we physically contended with a 6th grader, we would lose. We think it wouldn’t be worth putting in all the time and effort into something that’s just not for us. I mean, why spend hours and hours when all it would mean is we’d get knocked out in five seconds instead of three?
Once more–and especially here–defense doesn’t just mean violence.
Besides, with preparation, and the Lord’s help, who knows what might happen? Here’s a story to illustrate:
There was a troop at Scout camp that was bigger and more numerous than us, bad, and they didn’t like us (they were the only other LDS troop there, go figure). Contention was growing, I was trying really hard to be good, and we went swimming. I was doing the freestyle with eyes closed (hey, it was in the lake!), when I felt a very slight bump. Weird–I had checked my path, it had been clear. I got to the pier I was swimming to, got out and sat, and quickly noticed a commotion on the other pier I had just swum from. One guy had a very bad bloody nose! Then I noticed someone pointing at puny old me (I was a skinny 90 lbs. in 9th grade). A-ha! Now I knew what that bump was… Well, we had no more problems with that troop afterward.

What to do?

So, here are my suggestions:
1. Know thyself, and then don’t.
Check out all these different ways. Decide which ones fit you best, and prepare. But who knows, maybe you actually have talents you and no one else know about, and would have never guessed.

2. You need a plan plans.
There are lots of different situations to prepare for: personal vs. couple vs. family vs. group, inside vs. outside vs. car, isolated vs. in a crowd, troublesome vs. life-threatening, etc.

3. You need to practice the plan.

4. Let the words of prophets (particularly the living), the scriptures, and especially the guidance of the Holy Ghost lead you. I share one account about this, and its importance:
I dreamed I was with a huge dude. He was big, bad, late 20’s/early 30’s, bald head, muscular. The situation was bad. He said to follow him, I thought yeah, no one could take him, it would be good. I had another feeling—like from the Holy Ghost—not to. We started walking, a group came but I still didn’t worry—until one guy pulled out a gun. Whoops. No amount of muscles beat that…
I’m glad it was just a dream.

Another example, from church history:
A mob was crossing the river to attack the Saints; the local Mormons were ready to ambush what would have been easy targets wading in deep water in a restricted area; a messenger just arrived from Joseph Smith saying the prophet says to submit, not fight; the local leader prayed, felt the Holy Ghost say to follow the prophet; they submitted instead of fought, were captured but were later released; even though as they were leaving in a straight line (like old English battlefield shooting) they were fired at twice at close range by the whole mob, not one Saint was shot or even hit.

Here are some other ways for success:
*get your family involved. This might also help everyone’s self-confidence. Let everyone explore their own skills and talents.
*think of a list, in order of preference, you could use and areas to work on.

Ok, I keep saying defense and protection is more than just physical confrontation and violence. Here are some things to consider:

Let them know you’re watching.
Sometimes, just one other person being around, or watching, is enough to deter problems before they start. Especially if you’re holding a videocamera, or a cellphone, or both.

Talk.
Maybe a reminder–hey, I’m here watching.
Maybe just a short plea. You can talk of God, of family, police problems, jail, etc.
Maybe a talking to. It doesn’t have to be a threat—it might even be the opposite. An invitation could work where a threat might make it worse.
Getting other people’s attention and help.
Calling for help.

Do.
This doesn’t necessarily mean violence. It could be: trying to calm the situation, pulling people apart, seeing if someone’s ok, especially if it was “on the spot” violence.

Get involved.
Depending on the threat, it can be “standing by” someone, physically fighting, or even using a weapon. Realize there are many more crimes deferred by a weapon than crimes committed with a weapon, and many situations are helped by weapons.

Take a look in the Book of Mormon at what the Nephites did in particular. Weapons, armor, strong defenses and forts, stratagems galore, praying for help and having faith, and yes fighting—all providing safety to the Nephites, protecting them from the Lamanites, and especially discouraging the enemy.

I hope this has helped in some way to remind and encourage LDS men to become a little more like many of the great men in the Book of Mormon who abhorred violence yet were ready and wiling to defend and protect to death.


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2009, April 8

Is It Good for Me?

Filed under: Uncategorized — grego @ 9:37 am
Tags: , , ,

Is It Good for Me?
by grego

There’s a lot going on in this world, and sometimes it’s hard, even for the diligent, to know if something is good for them or not. Look, for example, at all the studies on wine, coffee, and tea–three big parts of the law of the Word of Wisdom that LDS/ Mormons follow. Good, bad? Which is it?

Here’s an insight or two to keep in mind when you read all the studies, and more. “Is it good for me?” can be answered “yes” for most things in at least some way or another, some time or another! So can bad. Is cutting your leg off good? Maybe so, if you have a super-powerful deadly poison working its way up and you’ll be dead in 10 seconds unless you do it. Is it bad to pat someone on the back to encourage them? Yes, if they have a big boil there! I suggest that “Is it good for me?” is usually not the question you want to be asking.

Instead, ask, “Is it the best thing for me? Adding it all up (the pluses and the minuses), what is the result? Other than the one thing this study talks about, what other studies have been done? What could happen if I take this? What could happen over time?” And perhaps the most important, “What are other things that could also give me what I’m looking for, but would be better for me overall?” (For example, coffee wakes you up and gives you energy when you feel tired but need to get things done–and so do many green powder drinks, but with probably none of the negative side effects of coffee. Or better, thymus tapping, which is healthy, even more convenient, and free.)

So, don’t take the narrow, limited view when looking at matters like this (or any other matter, for that matter)–step back, look wide and far, take it all in!


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2009, January 30

“Deseret News Censors Political Comment” by grego

“Deseret News Censors Political Comment” by grego

Well, I just went back to check on my post about LDS Church leaders feeling “deep emotion” at the inauguration of Pres. Obama (http://deseretnews.com/article/1,5143,705279298,00.html), and… it wasn’t there.

Interesting, because I made sure, after reading the rules: “Any comments found to be abusive, offensive, off-topic, misrepresentative, more than 200 words or containing URLs will not be posted.”, to clean my post all up before submitting it.

There’s quite a lot of heat in the other comments on the three pages of reader comments, which made me even more sure there would be no problems with my own comment. Here’s a selection, to give you an idea of what is there:

Quote:
-=-=-=
To REST IT – We have no voice | 5:41 p.m. Jan. 21, 2009
We have no voice anymore.
The Republican party has become corrupted and polluted, and the Democrats just sit around and bicker (not to mention the long-standing pollution and corruption that has been there too!).
The government does not care about taking care of the needs of the people–they only care about doing what’s good for them and keeping themselves in power.
I’m sick of the “our voices are heard” rhetoric. That’s just political fodder calculated to make us feel better about how undemocratic our government has made us.
So stop trying to fool everyone–you’re only making a fool out of yourself.
-=-=-=
CITIZEN | 4:57 p.m. Jan. 21, 2009
To the L.D.S.first presidency;Four (4)years from now i would like to see your true opinion of obama printed in the D.N.I will be suprised if it is the same as it is now.
-=-=-=
Anonymous | 4:40 p.m. Jan. 21, 2009
After reading these silly posts day after day it is clear that religion muddles human thinking. Reality and logic are waiting for you..
-=-=-=
from Australia | 2:18 a.m. Jan. 22, 2009
We’re just laughing at the whole inaugeration/ coronation.
Was that serious?
Albert Speer would be laughing.
Same jam, different flies. There is no difference to both parties, people should not think otherwise.
The packet looks good, lets now see whats in the box. I wont judge him until then.
Still, he can’t be worse than the other joker you had.
(PS. When does he get his crown and sceptre?)
-=-=-=
Carl R. | 6:40 a.m. Jan. 22, 2009
J. Reuben Clark, an eminent statesman and Church leader wisely pointed out where our allegiance should lie (not to the man, but to the Constitution):
“Today, our duty transcends party allegiance; our duty today is allegiance to the Constitution as it was given to us by the Lord. Every federal officer takes an oath to support that Constitution so given. The difference between us and some of those to the South of us is this: down there, their fealty runs to individuals; here, our fealty and our allegiance run to the Constitution and to the principles which it embodies, and not to individuals.
“God give us wisdom and enable us in these times of trouble and strife clearly to see our way, that we may be instrumental in sustaining the Constitution, in upholding our free institutions, our civil rights, our freedom of speech, of press, of religion, and of conscience. If we shall stand together we shall save the Constitution, just as has been foreseen, and if we do not stand together, we cannot perform this great task.”
(General Conference Report October 1942, 2nd Session)
-=-=-=
Anonymous | 3:50 p.m. Jan. 24, 2009
To It’s_Chet,
Your post sounds like a convoluted way of saying “Too bad if you feel uncomfortable among Mormons. It is YOUR problem. Get over it. Only the BAD people (non-Mormons) in Utah are not nice.”
Is that about the gist of it?
Because YOU are ONE of the hyperjudmental, Mormon bigots, you obviously have to try to defend yourself and your Mormon friends against the hurtful truth that you are all a bunch of clique-ish, elitist, arrogant fascists!
-=-=-=

Ok, I guess that should suffice. (For more, go visit the site.) Those, and others similar, are on the site, but my comment was gone. Or, maybe even never made it.
So, what was my comment that the Deseret News refused to put up?

It went something like this:
“What a mess. (There were some flaming comments (a lot of name-calling), and after a second look, it is clear that mine was not the only one deleted, though I’m not sure why; many of the deleted comments weren’t all that bad, especially compared to a few that were left.)
Of course LDS Church leaders will support and pray for the American president, no matter who it is.
The USA is a republic, not a democracy. (People kept talking about the USA being a democracy.)
The people did not elect Obama, the people who control the voting machines and the electoral college did. (People kept talking about the the people electing/ choosing Obama, the people’s voice, etc.)
Do not look to the American president for hope. Bush did not save us. Obama will not save us. No American president will save us. (There were many comments about this hope.)
There is really no such thing as Democrat and Republican. They are just two sides of the same coin—thesis and antithesis—in the drive for a one-world government.”

I’m pretty sure there was more, but I can’t remember exactly what it was.

Well, I’m not the best at politics, but… I was trying to set a few simple political things straight, and open a few eyes. Oh well. I guess the Deseret News thought something else.


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2009, January 6

Poem: “My Father” by grego

My Father

God’s my father
I’m his son
Just like Him
I want to become

In this life
I win or lose
I gain a body
and learn to choose.

If I but follow
my Lord Jesus Christ
in the next life
my reward will be nice

I will become as
My father.


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2008, November 28

Mormonism and Spirit Release Therapy: Interesting Similarities

Interesting Similarities between Mormonism and Spirit Release Therapy
by grego

“Spirit Release Therapy” is the term given to a type of therapy where people are “cleaned” or “depossessed” of outside/ foreign “energies”, spirits, etc. While it has been part of earlier cultures for a while, in Western therapy, it’s somewhat new.

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints/ Mormon Church believes in many things that “add up” or “fit in” with Spirit Release Therapy (though others don’t). While LDS may scoff at the idea, especially since Spirit Release Therapy is often thought of as a “New Age” thing, the following might be noted.

(NOTE: If you don’t feel good/ you feel a negative presence that especially grows while you are reading this, I encourage you to not continue until/ unless you do. If you feel you have a problem with evil spirits, I encourage you as an anonymous friend to find a counselor, a Spirit Release therapist, an LDS Melchizedek priesthood holder, or any combination for help. There are also books and perhaps websites that talk about things that one can do to help in the meantime.)

We’ll start with whether spirits actually exist.
Latter-day revelation declares that “all spirit is matter, but it is more fine or pure” than the physical materials of earth life (D&C 131:7-8).

Are there spirits right here? Are they just in heaven and hell?
Brigham Young taught that the Spirit World was taught to be right here, on this earth, and similar in many ways to this life:
“Where is the spirit world? It is right here. Do the good and evil spirits go together? Yes they do…. Do they go beyond the boundaries of the organized earth? No, they do not…. Can you see it with your natural eyes? No. Can you see spirits in this room? No. Suppose the Lord should touch your eyes that you might see, could you then see the spirits? Yes, as plainly as you now see bodies.”

“When you are in the spirit world, everything there will appear as natural as things now do. Spirits will be familiar with spirits in the spirit world—will converse, behold, and exercise every variety of communication with one another as familiarly and naturally as while here in tabernacles. There, as here, all things will be natural, and you will understand them as you now understand natural things. You will there see that those spirits we are speaking of are active; they sleep not.”

“…if they hedge up your way, walk up and command them to disperse. You have the Priesthood and can disperse them, but if any of them wish to hear the Gospel, preach to them.”

Church history (old and new) and personal experiences contain accounts of spirit influence, spirit trouble, and spirit possession. I have put some of these here to reprove those who claim that there is truly no such thing and never has been; that all mental illness is completely personal/ medical, as some scientists claim, and that the “old ones” were just doing their best to explain mental illness in the best way they knew how, and that’s all it is. (While it is possible that some have been wrongly attributed, to pretend it’s all fake because a person might have been wrong to conclude a spirit caused an illness that it didn’t, is wrong.) When I spoke with a long-time member (of about 40 years) about casting an evil spirit out of someone we both knew well, he laughed it off and said I must have been mistaken. So, in light of that, in the mouth of two or three witnesses (and many more), here:

“There was a man with a family came into the church who lived about 15 miles from me who had a brother-in-law that was possessed with the devil and was kept chained in a tight room. Numbers had been there to administer to him but had no effect. I went there to preach on the after part of the day. The man got loose and was breaking down the ceiling. They had been in the habit of getting a very strong man to help on such occasions and were about to send for him in a hurry. I desired them to let me see him before they did. They were afraid he would come out and kill some of them. With much persuasion I got them to unlock the door to his room. Such rough, profane language, and threatening I had never heard before. They said he was dangerous, but I entreated them to let me open the door. I had full confidence that I could handle him with the help of God. I was satisfied that they did not understand my intentions. I looked through the crack of the door. When he caught my eye he said, “Old Pulsipher I knew you of old!” At that instant I burst the door open. He stood with a sharp stick in his hand drawn ready to stab me. Although he was a stout man and full of violent passion, I closed in with him so quick that he did not know which side was up till he lay on his back and I holding him while they bound him again. The family seemed surprised. Before I left the next morning the man, whose name was Samuel Newcomb, wished me to come and stay with him one year. He would give large wages for he said that I could handle him with ease and he could leave his family at home with more safety. He was a man of considerable business and property to manage. I asked him if he wished to gather up to Kirtland with the church. He said he would if he could sell his farm. He wanted $1600 for it. We arranged for him to go the next spring and I took the whole care of the wild man. I recollect at one time upon the matter of his feeding he flew into a rage all at once and broke loose. I was at work in the barn. A messenger came running for me and said the man was killing his mother. I found him in a dreadful rage. I rushed into the room and took him by the shoulder and shook him and said, “Sam, what are you about?” He, in a moment, left his raging, dropped his head and became docile until he was bound again. Later on we counseled with the old Father Smith and he advised us to get seven Elders of report and fast and pray till he was delivered. We consulted the family who had not kept the Word of Wisdom, but they agreed to do it. We, therefore, took the man, loosened his hands, administered to him in a room by ourselves and I do not remember of him a raving spell after that for six months. The devil entered him again. We were called for the second time. The family had promised to keep the covenants but found they had returned to the old practice of breaking the Word of Wisdom…(1836)”
www.boap.org/LDS/Early-Saints/ZPulsipher.html
-=-=-=
“In Kirtland there were manifestations of evil spirits in high places, which might have been considered more dangerous than the manifestations in the early establishment of the Church. Sidney Rigdon, on one occasion got up to preach, and commenced by saying that the Church and kingdom was rent from them and given to another people. Joseph was absent, when he came home he found Sidney almost like a madman. He labored with him and with the Church, and finally succeeded in convincing him that he was under the influence of a false spirit.

A man from the state of New York by the name of Hawley, stated that while he was working in his field, barefoot, the word of the Lord came to him, saying that he should start on the instant, and not stop to put on his shoes. He came six hundred miles to Kirtland, and went to Joseph with the message that he had suffered John Noah, a prophet of God, to be cut off from the Church, and that consequently he had lost his office; and he had also suffered the women to wear caps, and the men he allowed to wear cushions on their shoulders, and for these heinous sins he was cut off, and this man had come six hundred miles barefooted to bear the terrible message. You might suppose such an adventurer coming among us would be regarded as a madman by all, but at that time several men were ready to listen to him; a bishop’s council was assembled and an investigation had.

During the investigation, the subject of women wearing caps and veils and having their heads covered was canvassed, and the Bible ransacked by Oliver Cowdery and others. When the man was expelled from the Church for giving way to the power of false spirits, he rose up in a most solemn manner, and proclaimed to the council that they had chosen darkness instead of light.”

http://www.boap.org/LDS/Early-Saints/Ohio-JD.html

-=-=-=
March 15.–A council was called to consider the case of Brother Lake(41), from Wooster, Wayne county, Ohio, who came professing to have received revelations. On investigation, it was unanimously agreed, that said Brother Lake was under the influence of an evil spirit, and that his license as Priest be taken from him.

http://www.boap.org/LDS/History/HTMLHistory/v1c23history.html

-=-=-=
7. But ye are commanded in all things to ask of God, who giveth liberally; and that which the Spirit testifies unto you even so I would that ye should do in all holiness of heart, walking uprightly before me, considering the end of your salvation, doing all things with prayer and thanksgiving, that ye may not be seduced by evil spirits, or doctrines of devils, or the commandments of men; for some are of men, and others of devils.
8. Wherefore, beware lest ye are deceived; and that ye may not be deceived seek ye earnestly the best gifts, always remembering for what they are given;
Doctrine and Covenants 46
-=-=-=
“Just before leaving England I visited some friends in Sheffield, and met with Brother R. Rushton, who was on a mission from Nauvoo. He had been asked to visit a brother in the Church who was possessed of a devil. This was the first case of the kind I had heard of being in the Church, and I felt quite anxious to see the party so afflicted. While reflecting about it, Brother Rushton asked me to accompany him, which I cheerfully did, and what transpired I never shall forget. When we entered the room where he was sitting, he looked around and saw Brother Rushton whom he had met before, and with a coarse voice said: “So you have come again in the name of Jesus have you? Well you may come if you have a mind to. I know you came from Nauvoo where you are building a temple to get your endowments and more power. Well, get your power, and the more power you get the more power we’ll get.” Just as soon as he was through speaking, Brother Rushton laid hands on him and rebuked the evil spirits that had possession of him, when the brother called out in a loud voice: “How did you know there was more than one?” Brother Rushton remarked calmly: “You said we.” The brother then said, “We will go but we will come again.”

Two days after they did come again, and his wife sent for the president of the branch who was a very good quiet man. A young traveling elder who had a good deal of confidence in himself, was in at the time the message came and asked the president to let him accompany him and administer to the brother, who at this time was breaking things in his house. When they reached the house they found him very much excited. He quieted a little when they entered, but soon became boisterous again, and they laid hands upon him, this young man being mouth. No sooner had he rebuked the spirits, commanding them to depart, than he became quiet and wished to lay down. But soon after, and when he appeared asleep, the young elder said to the parties present, “There, I believed I could quiet him.” He at this time was sitting upon the side of the bed where the afflicted man was lying. The brother no sooner heard this remark than he raised himself up quietly and as soon as he got up, struck this young man such a blow that he was knocked to the other side of the room. This convinced me that the brother had better give [the Lord] the credit for such manifestations.

http://www.boap.org/LDS/Early-Saints/WStaines.html

-=-=-=
“the truth of God would have left him untill he obeyed those ordinances & received the gift of the Holy Ghost by the laying on of hands according to the order of God he could not have healed the sick or command an evil spirit to come out of a man & it obey him”

http://www.boap.org/LDS/Parallel/1842/20Mar42.html

-=-=-=
16 July 1845, Wednesday
Nauvoo 4

Wednesday 16th. … Evening I went to see Diantha. We walked out some
together. She seemed to feel very bad about something which passed
during her visit this afternoon. When we returned to her home I saw
that her mind was affected and she was likely to have another fit of
mental derangement. I tried to persuade her to go to bed but she was
unwilling, but I finally got her mother to make her a bed down stairs
and we put her to bed by force. Soon as she got laid down she began to
toss about and rave as if in great pain which seemed to increase
untill she was perfectly out of her mind and raging. She tore her hair
and I then held her which required all the force I had got to hold her
hands. She continued about three quarters of an hour in this
distressing situation and about half past 10 sister Farr went & called
brother Farr. He came down and laid hands on her and rebuked the evil
spirit and commanded it to leave her in the name of the Lord. She
immediately calmed down and seemed to fall into a mild sleep.

http://www.boap.org/LDS/Early-Saints/clayton-diaries

-=-=-=
“At this time Sidney Rigdon… said the keys of the kingdom were taken from us. On hearing this, many of his hearers wept, and when some one undertook to dismiss the meeting by prayer he said praying would do them no good, and the meeting broke up in confusion.

Brother Hyrum [Smith] came to my house the next morning and told me all about it, and said it was false, and that the keys of the kingdom were still with us. He wanted my carriage and horses to go to the town of Hiram and bring Joseph. The word went abroad among the people immediately that Sidney [Rigdon] was going to expose “Mormonism.”

Joseph came up to Kirtland a few days afterwards and held a meeting…

Joseph arose in our midst and spoke in mighty power, saying: “I can contend with wicked men and devils–yes with angels. No power can pluck those keys from me, except the power that gave them to me; that was Peter, James and John. But for what Sidney [Rigdon] has done, the devil shall handle him as one man handles another.”

Thomas B. Marsh’s wife went from the meeting and told Sidney [Rigdon] what Joseph had said, and he replied: “Is it possible that I have been so deceived? But if Joseph says so, it is so.”

About three weeks after this, Sidney [Rigdon] was lying on his bed alone. An unseen power lifted him from his bed, threw him across the room, and tossed him from one side of the room to the other. The noise being heard in the adjoining room, his family went in to see what was the matter, and found him going from one side of the room to the other, from the effects of which Sidney was laid up for five or six weeks. Thus was Joseph’s prediction in regard to him verified.”

http://www.boap.org/LDS/Early-Saints/PDibble.html

-=-=-=
“One of my neighbors, a Brother James Moses, who lived across the street from me, was taken sick, and for six weeks was not able to speak above his breath. I went occasionally to see him, and one day while there Brother Bills and I were asked by Sister Moses to administer to him, which we did. She then asked us what we thought of him, and I replied that I had no testimony that he would live or that he would die; but she might as well pour water upon fire to make it burn as to give him medicine. This offended her, as she had a doctor by the name of Green attending him and we left.

Soon after this Brother [Heber C.] Kimball (one of the Apostles) was called on to administer to him, when Sister Moses asked him what he thought of her husband’s condition. He replied in the very words that I had used, but advised them to hold on to him. Brother Bills and I happening to call in again to see him, we were asked if we would anoint him. I consented and stepped up to the bed to put some oil on his forehead, but felt impressed to stop and say that he was possessed of evil spirits, and that they would kill him if they were not cast out before morning. He then commenced raving, and might have been heard across the street.

The Twelve Apostles were sent for and three of them came, Brother W. [Willard] Richards being one of them, who was mouth in prayer, as we all knelt in the room. After prayer, Brother Richards went to the bed, and, in the name of Jesus Christ, commanded the evil spirits to leave him and leave the house, which they did instantly, and Brother Moses became rational. He afterwards told us all about his feelings while the evil spirits had afflicted him, and that he was as sore as a boil all over from the effects of what he had passed through.”
-=-=-=
Joseph put his hands on Harvey Whitlock and ordained him to the high priesthood. He turned as black as Lyman was white. His fingers were set like claws. He went around the room and showed his hands and tried to speak; his eyes were in the shape of oval O’s. Hyrum Smith said, “Joseph, that is not of God.” Joseph said, “Do not speak against this.” “I will not believe,” said Hyrum, “unless you inquire of God and he owns it.” Joseph bowed his head, and in a short time got up and commanded Satan to leave Harvey, laying his hands upon his head at the same time. At that very instant an old man said to weigh two hundred and fourteen pounds sitting in the window turned a complete summersault in the house and came his back across a bench and lay helpless. Joseph told Lyman to cast Satan out. He did. The man’s name was Leanon [Leman] Coply [Copley], formally a Quaker [Shaker]. The evil spirit left him and as quick lightning Harvey Green fell bound and screamed like a panther. Satan was cast out of him. But immediately entered someone else. This continued all day and the greater part of the night. But to return to the meeting, Joseph said, “Now if you elders have sinned it will do you no good to preach if you have not repented. Heamon [Heman] Bassett you sit still the Devil wants to sift you. . .”
…”After this we went down to the house and heard Harvey Whitlock say when Hyrum Smith said it was not God, he disdained him in his heart and when the Devil was cast out he was convinced it was Satan that was in him and he knew then it. I also heard Harvey Green say that he could not describe the awful feeling he experienced while in the hands of Satan.”
…”When night came Solomon and I, Wheeler Baldwin and some others started to my father’s, we walked heavily, some said that they felt as if they would be seized by Satan. Others that they felt as though the Devil and his angels were hanging about them. I kept my feelings to myself, until we came to the mill pond of Mr. Fergdsons about a half or a little over the distance we had to go that night. When we had got against the pond which was about fourteen rods across and very deep, I said, “Let us pray.” So we all kneeled down and prayed around a circle as soon as the last one got through about nine o’clock at night and the moon shown brightly. A sudden bray of a jackass was heard about twenty feet behind us. We looked and could see nothing and nothing in the way. It started toward the pond braying all the time. I never had seen one in my life and I know that there was none about there for I was well acquainted there. I heard how they brayed. The most of our company had seen them. This braying continued across the pond and ascended the high hills on the other side until it grew less and less distinct until it got out of hearing.
“There,” said Brother Baldwin. “This proves to me that this work is true, for we all prayed for assistance; the Devil ran away.” . . . “

http://www.boap.org/LDS/Early-Saints/LHancock.html

-=-=-=
The next morning I was up early and looked over the city of the Mormons. In the afternoon a funeral sermon was delivered in the temple by Jared Carter, a smart speaker, but I learned nothing in particular. The fact was the horizon of my mind was so obscured by clouds of darkness and doubt of long standing that I could see nothing as I ought.
The evil spirit came upon me and had that power over me that at times I would shake like a man with the ague. At another time I would be standing on some emenance [?] weeping like a whipped child, and knew no reason why; then lost in meditation, wandering about the city like a man of little sense.

http://www.boap.org/LDS/Early-Saints/LShurtliff.html

-=-=-=
There was a brother in the Church by the name of Kelley, who had a son some ten or twelve years old, who had been subject to fits from early childhood. They would seize him at any moment, and were as apt to throw him into the fire or into the water, as any other place, so that it was unsafe to leave him alone. His parents wished to have him administered to according to the instruction given in the New Testament, by James, where he says, “Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord: And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, . . .” James v:14, 15.

Elder George A. Smith, Joseph’s cousin, had come and was with us a few days, and we were together at the time. Before attending to the ordinance of anointing, we went by ourselves into a solitary place and had a season of solemn fervent prayer. We returned to the house, and calling the family to order, knelt before the Lord and had another season of prayer, when we arose and anointed the lad with olive oil, which had been consecrated and set apart for the purpose of anointing the sick, after which we laid our hands upon his head and asked our Heavenly Father, in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, to be pleased to rebuke the evil spirit and heal the lad, according to the promise of our Savior, in Mark 16:18, and left him in the hands of the Lord. He was perfectly restored from that very hour, and troubled no more with that sore affliction. We saw his father over forty years later, who told us his son never had another fit after he was administered to that time, whereas, before, they were of much frequent occurrence that it was unsafe to leave him alone. That he was now residing in Nebraska, the head of a family.

There was a family by the name of Newcombe, residing about one mile south of the temple in Kirtland. His wife’s brother, (a man we should judge about thirty years of age) was a raving maniac of the most violent kind. He had to be kept chained in an outhouse by himself, and clothed with strong, coarse clothing, for when he could, he would tear his clothing from him. He would also rave and rage exceedingly whenever any person came near him excepting his sister, Mrs. Newcombe, she had control over him. We saw him different times, but it was a distressing sight.

In the latter part of November or in December, 1836, several brethren took his case in hand, and went to Brother Newcombe’s and commenced to fast and pray for power over the evil spirit, and deliverance for the man from his power. Joseph Smith, Sen. (father of Joseph Smith, Jr., the translator of the Book of Mormon), had charge, assisted by Brethren John P. Green, Oliver Granger, and others. They continued in fasting and prayer for three days and nights, with occasionally, one at a time, taking a little respite, when Brother [Joseph] Smith, Sen., told them to bring the man into the room where they were, which they did. They laid their hands upon him in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, and rebuked the evil spirit by which he had been bound, when the man wilted down, and became as a little child. Brother Joseph Smith, Sen., ordered them to take the chains from off him. He was healed, to the great joy of all, and they felt to render thanksgiving and praise to our Heavenly Father, to whom be glory and honor forever and ever, amen.

http://www.boap.org/LDS/Early-Saints/ERobinson.html

-=-=-=
The sick were healed. One instance I will relate: A young lady, Emily Fuller by name, had joined the church and came from another branch to visit for a few days. She was at Brother Blaksley’s and was suddenly taken ill and went into convulsions. She grew worse. Her frame was racked with cramping. It took three or four of us to keep her on the bed. The elders were away quite a distance, filling appointments. My husband was at home, but he only held the office of a deacon, so consequently could not administer the ordinance of the laying on of hands to rebuke the destroyer. But everything was done that could be, but nothing relieved her. It seemed the evil spirits were bound to destroy her. At last my husband got on a horse and rode 14 miles and brought Elder Ducher to administer to her. She was in great agony when he came in. He knelt down and prayed mightily for strength and power that he might rebuke the destroyer and bid him depart. He arose and went to the bed side, laid his hands upon her head and clothed with the authority and power of the priesthood, be rebuked the destroyer and told her to be made whole and arise from her bed, which she did and called for water to wash and the comb to comb her hair, although she was very weak for she had been in this state for twenty-four hours. Time can never erase this from my memory for I was an eye witness of the whole thing and it was the power of God that raised her up.

http://www.boap.org/LDS/Early-Saints/NTracy.html

-=-=-=
We traveled along in fine order and after a few hundred miles we got out of money and stopped and worked about a month at Dayton, Ohio, and got means to pay our way thru to Missouri. While at Dayton the devil entered our camp and got possession of one of the sisters. She was in awful pain and talked all the time and some of the time in rhyme. The Elders administered to her. The evil spirits left her and entered another person and on being rebuked again would enter another and so continued a good part of the night. But when the devil was commanded in the name of Jesus Christ to leave the camp, he went and was very mad. He went thru the whole camp, made a roaring noise, knocked over chairs, broke table legs and made awful work.

http://www.boap.org/LDS/Early-Saints/JPulsipher.html

-=-=-=
About day break, Sunday July 30th, Elder Isaac Russell came up to the third loft where Elder Hyde and myself were sleeping, and called upon us to pray for him, that he might be delivered from the evil spirits that were tormenting him to such a degree that he felt he could not live long, unless he obtained relief. We laid hands on him, I being mouth, and prayed that the Lord would have mercy on him, and rebuke the Devil. While thus engaged, I was struck with great force by some invisible power, and fell senseless on the floor; and the first thing I recollected was being supported by elders Hyde and Russell who were praying for me. They then laid me on the bed, but my agony was so great I arose, bowed on my knees and prayed.

I then sat on the bed and could distinctly see the evil spirits who foamed and gnashed their teeth upon us. We gazed upon them about an hour and a half, we were not looking towards the window but towards the wall, space appeared before us and we saw the devils coming in legions with their leaders, who came within a few feet of us, they came towards us like armies rushing to battle, they appeared men of full stature, possessing every uncomely form and appearance of men in the flesh, and every variety of stature and form, mean, mangled and deformed, who were angry and desperate, and I shall never forget the vindictive malignity depicted on their countenances, and any attempt to paint the scene which then presented itself; or portray the malice and enmity depicted in their countenances would be vain. I perspired exceedingly, and my clothes were wet as if I had been taken out of the river.

Although I felt exquisite pain, and was in the greatest distress for some time, and cannot even look back on the scene without feelings of horror; yet, by it I learned the power of the Adversary, his enmity against the servants of God, and got some understanding of the invisible world. We distinctly heard those spirits talk and express their wrath and hellish designs against us. However the Lord delivered us from them, and blessed us exceedingly that day, and I had the pleasure (notwithstanding my weakness of body) of baptizing nine.

Two of the candidates, on coming forward for baptism, ran a race; the younger, George D. Watt, outran the elder and was the first baptized in England.

“He [Joseph Smith] took me a walk by the river side and requested me to relate the occurrence at the Bozier house. I did so, and also told him the vision of evil spirits in England on the opening of the gospel to that people. After I had done this, I asked what all these things meant and whether or not there was anything wrong in me. `No, Brother Heber, at that time when you were in England, you were then nigh unto the Lord. There was only a veil between you and Him, but you could not see Him. When I heard it, it gave me great joy, for I then knew that the work of God had taken root in the land; it was this that caused the Devil to make a struggle to kill you.’ Joseph then said the nearer a person approaches the Lord, a greater power would be manifest by the Devil to prevent the accomplishment of the purposes of God. He then gave me a relation of many contests that he had had with Satan, and his power had been made manifest from time to time since the commencement of bringing forth the Book of Mormon.”

http://www.boap.org/LDS/Early-Saints/HCKimball.html

-=-=-=
In the following morning we went to work as usual and when we returned home at noon we found my wife very sick. We began to realize the true situation. She had been indefatigable in nursing the sick and had borne up bravely until now. It was a new experience to be thus baffled by the powers of darkness, that such was the case was manifest in the condition of my wife who was a firm believer in the gospel. She had borne unflinchingly every trial every trial she had been called to pass through; she had all the confidence in the ordinances of the Holy Priesthood for the healing of the sick it was possible to have; but now worn out by anxiety and nursing the sick, and weak in body, she seemed unable longer to resist the evil influences surrounding her.

Usually when she was taken sick her first wish was to call upon the elders, but now as we approached her and laid our hands upon her head she resisted, the devil manifesting itself through her defying us saying we had no power to cast it out. For awhile I walked the floor talking to her, being convinced that all our troubles arose from the influence of the powers of darkness. I invited Brother Whitney to take a walk with me.

We walked some distance away from the town until we reached a secluded spot in the timber. There we both poured out our souls to God in supplication, beseeching him to hear our prayers and give us power to cast out those unclean spirits and devils that were distressing our families. We returned to the house to find my wife lying upon the bed just as we had left her. Her face was almost scarlet with the fever and in her eyes a terrible brightness and as defiant as before.

I went to the bedside, then I said, “Come Brother Whitney we will again lay our hands on and administer to her,” and we, together administered by laying our hands on her head and with all the power we held by virtue of the Priesthood of the Son of God we rebuked the devil and every evil spirit and power in the name of Jesus Christ. When we had ceased praying and took our hands off her head, she had fainted. When this passed off she was extremely weak, almost lifeless but in her right mind. We then went through the house and laid our hands upon each member of our families and rebuked the evil spirits in the name of Jesus Christ and commanded them to depart from the house and trouble us no more. Our prayers were heard and answered, the powers of darkness were rebuked. My wife recovered and we were disturbed no more. We praised God who delivered us out of this great affliction.

http://www.boap.org/LDS/Early-Saints/WMace.html

-=-=-=
“The signs spoken of include the casting out of devils. This recalls to my remembrance something of the kind which occurred at the Pomphret Branch, previous to which I had had but very little experience as to what may be termed the physical power of the devil. I was then far from the body of the Church, consequently what I learned I had to find out by experience, having no one to tell me. The case was that of a sister, who was possessed, and whom I, with two other elders, was called upon to visit. Directly we entered her room, she called out, “Take your shoes from off your feet, this is holy ground, the Prophet Elijah is here.” I saw the spirit by which she was influenced, so I walked up to her and said, “I am a servant of the Lord, I obey no command of the devil.” She became uproarious directly, for all who had gone in previously, had complied with her directions.

As soon as we attempted to rebuke the evil spirit, in the name of the Lord, she arose up from the bed, on her feet, without apparently bending a joint in her body, stiff as a rod of iron. From this we saw the power with which we had to contend; and, failing at first to eject the spirit, we bowed ourselves in prayer before the Lord, and asked him to assist us. The evil spirit then came out full of fury, and as he passed by one of the brethren, seized him by both arms, and gripped them violently, [For similar instances of power see Elder Kimball's Journal.] and, passing towards me, something which by the feel appeared like a man’s hand, grasped me by both sides of my face, and attempted to pull me sideways to the ground, but the hold appearing to slip I recovered my balance immediately. My face was sore for some days after this. The other brother that was seized was lame for a week afterwards.

As soon as this was done, the sister partially recovered, so much so that she obeyed anything I chose to tell her to do, whereas before she was perfectly ungovernable. Still she seemed to be surrounded by some evil influence. This puzzled us, for we knew the spirit was cast out, but we learned the cause afterwards. Just then it was revealed to us that if we went to sleep, the devil would enter one of the brethren. My nephew, Melvin Brown, neglected the warning, and composed himself to sleep in an armchair, whilst we were still watching with the sister. Directly he did so, the devil entered into him, and he became black in the face, and nearly suffocated. He awoke immediately, and motioned for us to lay hands on him, for he could not speak. We did so, and the evil spirit then left him, and he recovered at once.

About a week afterwards the same spirit reentered the sister, and this time fully confessed his character. In answer to our inquiries, he said his name was “Legion.” This explained how it was that the woman, after we had cast out an evil spirit, was under an evil influence, for there must have been many spirits. [See case of Mary Magdalene.--Mark xvi, 9. The Lunatic.--Mark v.] He also reviled our priesthood, but he had to submit to it at last, saying to us, “O! you have the priesthood, have you? Well, then cast me out, command me to come out,” trying to shake our faith, and thus incapacitate us to rebuke him successfully. Failing in this, he tried another method by entering me. I felt seized by a strange influence, and to every question put to the woman, I knew the answer she was going to give, for I was possessed by a similar spirit. This broke the chain of our union and strength, consequently I requested the elders to rebuke the evil spirit from me, after which, at our united rebuke, he left the woman.

Previous to this, the sister had been a very faithful Saint, and she ever afterwards was, but she had given the devil ground by encouraging a spirit contrary to the order of the Church, taking upon herself to rebuke the elders, and he claimed his right by virtue of her transgression. No doubt one object of the Lord’s permitting him to exercise his physical power was to give me experience of such facts, without which I never could have known; but I, like many others who may read this record, might have argued my ignorance of such things, as a proof that they did not exist except in imagination. By “physical power” is meant such power as was manifested in the case of the man mentioned in the Gospels, who “could not be bound even with chains,” so great was the strength of the devil by which he was possessed. I know very well that this religious generation are so fearful lest anyone should suppose there is any resemblance between their faith and practice, and those of the ancient church, that, after most vigorously asserting that “Apostles, Prophets, and other similarly inspired men, are done away; revelations are done away; visions are done away; tongues and prophecy are done away; healings and miracles are done away;” and, in a word, all external manifestations of the Holy Ghost, or the power of God, devils are added to this list of “done aways,” and forsooth we are to rejoice and be exceeding glad.

Happy generation! Shall we say, where ignorance is bliss, `tis folly to be wise? They practically say it for themselves. What! they, “living in the blaze of gospel light, troubled with devils!” It is true that even now, sometimes, some are seized with strong afflictions called fits, which make them wallow on the ground, gnash their teeth, foam, tear their hair off their heads, and display such miraculous strength, that a dozen people cannot sometimes hold one person while under these strange affections. But what of that? Who but poor deluded “Mormons” would attribute such things to the power of the devil? May we ask what else they are caused by? Oh, they are caused by fits. Yes, but what are fits? “Why fits are–that is to say, we don’t know what they are, except that they are fits.” And this is all we can be told about the matter.

Then again, there are certain people called “madmen,” who, generally, previous to their having “the disease,” are quiet-going people enough, possessing no more bodily strength than anybody else, but who, through some “affection of the mind,” have increased their bodily strength to such an extent, that they have to be manacled–bound with cords and fetters, and put in great houses, where the windows have to be barred with iron, to protect them. “But these people are not possessed of devils, their brains are affected.” Indeed, their brains are affected, as well as many other parts of their bodies, when the devil gets possession of them.

We are told these are mysteries. They were no mysteries anciently! But this generation, despising revelation as being requisite now, have lost the key of knowledge, and are consequently surrounded by phenomena which they cannot understand. And if the Bible does not happen to say anything about them, as such persons have no hope that God will, they are quite contented to die ignorant.”

http://www.boap.org/LDS/Early-Saints/BBrown.html

-=-=-=

Now, these are not all the accounts; there are many more, from all time periods and places; but I imagine these suffice for a decent novice’s understanding. Is it possible that maybe a few of those were not *true, actual* possessions or evil spirits, or maybe just a completely mental/ physical disease? Sure. But it’s also *very* clear that much of the above was directly and undeniably due to evil spirits.

Here are a few other similar things:

Garments
Among other things, this might be personal protection against any type of unseen attack/ psychic attack/ curse/ cords/ spirit attachment or influence, etc.

Dedicating a House (and Consecrating Church Buildings to the Lord)
This is similar to energy clearing/ “clearing an area” of negativity/ negative thought forms/ evil, and establishing an area of positive influence, so to say. It might also entail physical aspects, such as geopathic stress.

Casting out Evil Spirits
This is similar to spirit release therapy, but oh so much better.

While there are still things that don’t match up right now (perhaps due to lack of knowledge on either or both the LDS Church or Spirit Release therapists), I think this shows that there are some that are at least related. LDS should not be so quick to dismiss everything in Spirit Release Therapy just because some parts might not match up.

(Remember love, prayer and God’s mercy, and the priesthood, if possible, to overcome evil spirits.)


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2008, November 26

Mormon/ LDS History: Does the Mormon Church Cover-up, Lie, or Whitewash Its History?

Mormon/ LDS History: Does the Mormon Church Cover-up, Lie, or Whitewash Its History?
by grego

Of course not all history can make it into a small (or even large) volume that will be read by all. But are there lies and whitewashes, especially an unfair unbalance in the presentation? Well, there are summaries, and summaries don’t tell it all. (I know of much current history that is known by just a few, but that’s a little different, and that happens with everyone and everything.)

Yesterday, however, I was reminded that yes, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints/ Mormon/ LDS Church *DOES* whitewash history, in a certain way. But I would call it “blackwash”… Let me explain.

See, I was on www.boap.org reading the histories of the early Saints/ LDS members ( http://www.boap.org/LDS/Early-Saints/ ) researching information for another article/ blog post. And though I was looking for a few select quotes, I started reading more and more, and spent much of the day doing so. (That was not the first time I had been on the site, reading the journals/ records.) I was glad for those records, and I strongly encourage you to go read them for yourself. In fact, I think I would rather have my children read just four of those than to take a semester of LDS Church history at a BYU school.

As I was reading, I wondered, “If it were true that the LDS/ Mormon Church were so concerned with hiding church historical details, why would church leaders encourage members–past and present–to keep diaries/ journals, especially of church matters? That didn’t really make sense to me; how about you? Nor did the preservation of all the records on that website, which seems to be a BYU (Brigham Young University) website. Note this quote from the website also: “If you have, or know of, a journal, autobiography, diary or letters of other contemporaries of Joseph Smith, Jr. and would like to see them in this collection, please email us.” Sound like a cover-up, lie, or whitewash?

But one thing is absolutely certain and clear about these records: the stories they tell of the violence, bigotry, unlawfulness, hate, and evil done to them by both apostates and other “Christians” and others is more gorily detailed, emotionally moving, and damning than any LDS Church history book I have ever read–especially those books put out by the LDS Church.

On the other hand, the Saints’ suffering and dedication and sacrifice, the miracles and visions and blessings the Lord provided for them as groups and especially as individuals, their insights and testimonies and humility–is far stronger, much more frequent, more emotionally moving, spiritual, down-to-earth, poignant, truthful, and wonderful than any LDS Church history book I have ever read–especially those books put out by the LDS Church.

Which led to my conclusion: yes, the LDS Church does cover-up and whitewash its own history–against its own favor.


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2008, November 10

Will the REAL Christian(TM) Jesus Please Stand Up?

Will the REAL Christian(TM) Jesus Please Stand Up?
by grego

Do Mormons believe in the real God, the real Jesus? “No, they don’t!” say many Christians(TM). “The real Christian(TM) Jesus is not the Mormon Jesus!” What do I say?

I have one question first, that is *necessary* to answer before being able to answer that question: WHICH Christian Jesus is the *real* Jesus? The one that taught that baptism was necessary for salvation, or the one that taught that baptism was not necessary for salvation? The one that taught predestination and election, or the one that taught free will? The one that taught resurrection with a physical body, or the done that didn’t? The one that taught that he and his Father were one, or the one that taught they weren’t? The one who left all his words in the Bible to make it complete, or the one who spoke so many good words and did so many good works that they weren’t all written down? The one who can still communicate with man, or the one who has been silenced? The one whose work is done, or the one who still hasn’t finished his work?

Christians might better understand this question relating it to Jesus asking the Sadducees and the Pharisees which God they belived in–the one that taught the resurrection, or the one that didn’t? The one that believed the traditions of the elders, or the one that rejected them and relied on the original law of Moses? Which way to perform the temple ordinances? The one that taught that there were spirit beings, or that the spirit died with the body? The God that gave rewards and punishments in the next life, or the God that didn’t provide a next life? Or were both the Sadducees and the Pharisees, um, maybe… both not quite right on all the points, and that’s why Jesus was there, teaching and establishing a church?

So, which Christian(TM) Jesus is the real Jesus that one must believe in to be saved? After hundreds of years, and Christians(TM) still can’t come to a conclusion about the real Jesus.

Had all Christians been decided on the same Jesus, there likely would have been little turmoil in Joseph Smith’s mind and heart over this matter. But they weren’t, and it led to Joseph Smith seeing and hearing Jesus (the *real* Jesus, for LDS, of course–not one known through interpretation of written words only).

So until Christians can unite and decide which of all the Christian(TM) Jesuses is the *real* Jesus, it’s useless to ask this question and pretend to compare the Christian(TM) Jesus with the LDS Jesus, and it’s impossible for LDS/ Mormons to answer the question.

In essence, it is the same Jesus; but the difference is in what I would say is, knowing Him.


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2008, October 31

www.snopes.com–Always Right or Sometimes Wrong?

Dear Snopes,

I’ve heard a rumor that your website is not truthful, can you help?

About two years ago (three at the most), after being somewhat disgusted when people often referred to snopes.com as an infallible authority source, especially during debates, I decided to check.

So, off to… a page about Mormons. I checked the “birdie” story, and there was inaccurate information about Mormons/ LDS. And the attitude wasn’t very nice, either. Hmmm… Hey, snopes.com is just people, too–who says they’re infallible or *the* authority? Unfortunately, many do.

Well, here’s what you will find RIGHT NOW: http://www.snopes.com/glurge/birdies.asp

The original was very different. Not only was the second story missing, but comments from snopes.com seemed to be leading to “this story is false and pretty laughable”. (Man, sorry snopes.com, but I don’t have the original site to double check!)

On that webpage, it says that the last update was on 11 June 2003. Not true.

(Was that a misprint? “Forgot to update it when we updated the rest of the site”? Or an intentional lie?)

To confirm this, I checked the history of the link/ site on the internet. Well, what do you know, I couldn’t find much at all from snopes.com from the major internet cache places! I’m not the best researcher, but… all empty. Hardly any records at all, even for www.snopes.com. Hmmm… (How did that happen, and why?)

Well, no need to look far to find proof it was changed. Just look at the story itself at that link:
“It was penned in 1994 by Lloyd Glenn, a Mormon then living in Mission Viejo, California, about the accident that befell his son Brian on 22 July 1993.”

Dear snopes.com, how can you put something up on your webpage that happened “in the future”?

I smell a rat.

Here: http://snopes.com/glurge/ it says that this story rating is “unverifiable veracity”. Did someone forget to change that, too–or are they referring to “it’s true the story was penned and believed by the family, but we can’t verify that the events actually happened”. Nope. Check their rating page (http://www.snopes.com/info/ratings.asp) for more detailed ratings, and once more, you will see proof that the page was recently updated without record.

And, where is the source for the “real story” that got posted up? Somehow, that got left off, too. See, only sources prior to 1993 exist on the webpage.

I have to applaud snopes.com for something, though–at least the current story is much better in attitude and information about Mormons/ LDS.

So, I hope this reminds you that snopes.com is run by humans who aren’t completely objective or infallible, either–just like none of us. No more “infallible authority” status, please!

2008, September 27

grego: Comment on Jesus’ Parable of the Labourers in the Vineyard

grego: Comment on Jesus’ Parable of the Laborers in the Vineyard

Ok, it’s not in the Book of Mormon–even though there are discussions of laborers in vineyards there… In the Gospel According to St. Matthew, we read about the parable of the laborers in the vineyard:
CHAPTER 20
1 For the kingdom of heaven is like unto a man that is an householder, which went out early in the morning to hire labourers into his vineyard.
2 And when he had agreed with the labourers for a penny a day, he sent them into his vineyard.
3 And he went out about the third hour, and saw others standing idle in the marketplace,
4 And said unto them; Go ye also into the vineyard, and whatsoever is right I will give you. And they went their way.
5 Again he went out about the sixth and ninth hour, and did likewise.
6 And about the eleventh hour he went out, and found others standing idle, and saith unto them, Why stand ye here all the day idle?
7 They say unto him, Because no man hath hired us. He saith unto them, Go ye also into the vineyard; and whatsoever is right, that shall ye receive.
8 So when even was come, the lord of the vineyard saith unto his steward, Call the labourers, and give them their hire, beginning from the last unto the first.
9 And when they came that were hired about the eleventh hour, they received every man a penny.
10 But when the first came, they supposed that they should have received more; and they likewise received every man a penny.
11 And when they had received it, they murmured against the goodman of the house,
12 Saying, These last have wrought but one hour, and thou hast made them equal unto us, which have borne the burden and heat of the day.
13 But he answered one of them, and said, Friend, I do thee no wrong: didst not thou agree with me for a penny?
14 Take that thine is, and go thy way: I will give unto this last, even as unto thee.
15 Is it not lawful for me to do what I will with mine own? Is thine eye evil, because I am good?
16 So the last shall be first, and the first last: for many be called, but few chosen.

I attended Institute for four months at BYU where the teacher discussed the New Testament; a Brother M. Gerald Bradford. It was the worst class I have ever attended in my life for any type of religious learning, hands down. Ok, I really tried not to be biased. He had spoken at our stake conference earlier, and it’s the only time (I think) I’ve ever wanted to walk out on a talk, as I felt the Spirit really leave the room as he stood up and spoke. Not only that, the guy sounded like an … &^#@?. A few months later, and I had to be with him two hours, every week, in a small room, with very few other students! I tried to learn anything I could, really; but I don’t remember having learned anything the entire semester. Wait, on a personal/ personable level, he did share one thing one time: he had an aunt he cared for. Four months!! Discussing the (wait, we never “discussed” during his lessons–he spoke to us, and if he asked questions, he was only being rhetorical) lesson, he covered this parable. “We think it’s not fair. We all do.” I tried to keep it in as I had every time in the past he had made an assuming, stupid comment or judgment, but this time our differences had to come out: “Not really”. He wasn’t ready for that. Some little son of a peon had dared to…!! Aghast, he exclaimed/ threatened, “Yes we do!” I laughed. (I truly wish the man good luck, have prayed for him, and hope his classes are much better for everyone nowadays.)

At this time, I have my opinion for further reasons, which I’ll explain here:
When laborers look for work and accept a penny for a day, it’s because they need it, not because they want it. The early laborer had to work longer, but he had meals, had a pay he knew was coming at the end of the day, and was safe for the night.
Those that stand idle do so not because they are happy to pass the time yakking and joking instead of working. Really, who waits all day, into the elventh hour, looking and desperately hoping for work–if not those that desperately need it? Sure, the late laborers didn’t have to work as long; but they did have to worry all that time they were idle and waiting that there might be no future, no work; there had been no meals; but maybe, maybe they and their families would at least get a little something in pay and be safe for the night.
Which would you rather choose to be?


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2008, September 9

Bibletopics.com is False! Proof on their home page…

Bibletopics.com is False! Proof on their own home page…

After finding “The Disappointment of B. H. Roberts” at http://www.bibletopics.com/biblestudy/138.htm, I found the homepage.

That’s right, go to http://www.bibletopics.com/ and see this for yourself:

“What the Bible Says About… Software for PCs”

As if the Bible says *anything* about PC software!! Now we can be assured that they are straight from the evil devil Satan fallen Lucifer himselves. Beware, beware! Will they now twist the Bible to try to prove that it actually says something about PC software? Trying to pull the wool over our eyes, are they? It won’t work, I tell ya! I won’t buy their software, I fear it will contain hidden messages that will drag my soul in chains down to hell!

So, who’s behind www.bibletopics.com? It doesn’t say; no one takes credit. However, PC Shareware, Inc. copyrighted the website design, and it seems the only purpose (from the home page menu) is to sell the PC software. Clicking on that link takes you to a page for PC Shareware, Inc. to download the software. The company that is linked to from this page reads: “Welcome to PC Shareware, Inc. We are a software publisher located in Fredericksburg, Virginia. We have been providing low cost, high quality “try before you buy” software to tens of thousands of families, schools and businesses since 1988.
Voice: 1-540-899-4203 FAX: 1-540-371-3905″

Why would a computer “software publisher” have hidden negative articles (I couldn’t find them from the main menu) about other religions (Catholics, Mormons, Jehovah’s Witnesses, etc.) on their website? Or is this a religious front organization/ company? Which religion are they? (Luckily under the topic “Lawsuits” at http://www.bibletopics.com/topics.htm they show that the Bible they believe in says people shouldn’t enter into them!)

2008, July 18

Book of Mormon: Korihor–-Struck Dumb, and…? UPDATE

Book of Mormon: Korihor–Struck Dumb, and…? UPDATE

grego
(c) 2008

Wondering about sudden speech loss and problems similar to what might incapacitate a person (like Korihor) who had no previous health problems, I found the following possibilities (this is not my area of expertise, eh…) (read all the way to the last!):

1. stroke, probably in the left side of the brain (Korihor is aware that he cannot speak, and can still reason) (see: http://<a href="Right-Brain Damage”>)

2. autoimmune disease, such as MS (though this seems very unlikely to be the main reason for voice loss, and Korihor could still write at least right afterward)

3. psychogenetic disorder, such as conversion disorder (neurosis causing physical symptoms: a neurosis marked by the appearance of physical symptoms such as partial loss of muscle function without physical cause but in the presence of psychological conflict) (see www.speechpathology.com article)

4. possibly poison (article from New York Times years ago) (there ya go, critics! The priests *poisoned* Korihor. Ok, it’s possible, eh? But it would be hard for Alma to know the exact time to say the magic words, and have Korihor go from ok to dumb in a very short time.)

5. One of these 72 ways (though lots of them won’t do due to Korihor’s abilities and apparent immediate speech loss with no previous problems): 72 reasons for speech loss. I would like to study further, but have time constraints; after scanning a few, I do see some that would likely work.

6. A combination, such as psychological, then MS; mini-stroke, then stroke; etc.

7. Medicine/ chemicals, childhood problems resurfacing, etc. (I think most of these are unlikely.)

8. HERE’S THE COOL ONE, and one that those who dwell on any and all parallels between the Book of Mormon and outside things as evidence (usually for the bad, eh?) need note:
“The points and the orifices of the head and face are like the great windows of a high pavilion, by virtue of which Qi moves. When there is chaotic and rebellious Qi (Jue Qi) below, then the channels in the upper region do not move and there is lack of clarity of vision and hearing, sudden loss of speech, convulsions and dizziness” (from A BRIEF DISCUSSION OF The Points of the Window of Heaven by Peter Deadman and Mazin Al-Khafaji , in JOURNAL OF CHINESE MEDICINE NUMBER 43 SEPTEMBER 1993.)

Ok, I know this is Chinese acupuncture and not Nephite acupuncture (or did the Jaredites or Chinese carry it with them to the New World?), but…: Korihor’s “heaven’s window” acupuncture point(s) slammed shut from the rebellious and chaotic qi!

Wow, talk about an incredibly appropriate curse for Korihor to curse himself with!

In addition, for greater poetic justice–due to the devil appearing to Korihor in the form of an angel and talking to him and teaching him what to say–comes this (from the same article): “Disturbance of mental faculties is one of the manifestations of Jue [rebellious and chaotic] Qi. Tianzhu BL-10, Tianchuang SI-16, and Tianfu LU-3 are indicated respectively for ’seeing ghosts’, ‘manic ghost talk’, and ‘floating corpse ghost talk’. These indications, referring to some form of possession (and probably nowadays understood as schizophrenic type disorders) again reveal a state of chaos and rebellion of the Qi.”

Who says God doesn’t/ can’t have a sense of humor?


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2008, July 17

Book of Mormon: No Joy in the Bad Happening to the Wicked

Book of Mormon: No Joy in the Bad Happening to the Wicked

It is always true that the prophet finds no pleasure in the pain and suffering of the guilty, unless it is necessary to help them repent.

Here’s Alma’s thought:
Alma 30:46 And now it came to pass that Alma said unto him: Behold, I am grieved because of the hardness of your heart, yea, that ye will still resist the spirit of the truth, that thy soul may be destroyed.

Ok, critics, here’s your chance–find one time in the Book of Mormon when anyone righteous delights in something bad happening to someone bad, for vengeance/ just because it makes them feel good. If you can’t find one, please don’t assume that any righteous person would wish bad on Korihor, especially Alma.

Korihor committed crimes; he got three trials (and got let off once very easily), three denials (which were lies), four signs, and a final sign; and had he repented even then, no doubt he likely would have had the curse removed; but he didn’t repent. Was all that Alma’s and God’s faults? Are Alma and God really the bad guys here??

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